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#430933 - 11/18/10 06:02 PM Questions Regarding Xingyiquan
ilhe4e12345 Offline
Newbie

Registered: 11/18/10
Posts: 18
Loc: PA
Hello everything this is my first offical post and i had a few questions. I have been taking kung fu since April. I started off taking Pai Lum Tao kung fu which was interesting but not really what i was looking for and then recently a few months ago started taking 7 Star Praying Mantis which i love. To help me with my footwork my new teacher has told me about Xingyiquan and how the foot work is very similar. So after reasearching it alittle my teacher who knows the 5 element fists, and the 12 animal forms as well as 2 of the presentation forms (the ones created for wushu and such) is going to start me on it over the winter due to having limitations with the weather. my question is this...anybody out there take Xingyiquan? what do you think of it? and anybody recommend any good books on it? my teacher is amazing at what he does and i know he will be showing me everything he knows about it but i was just asking on here for any information you may have smile

Thanks for checking out my post and anything you may recommend i will seriously consider. thanks alot

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#430968 - 11/23/10 05:42 AM Re: Questions Regarding Xingyiquan [Re: ilhe4e12345]
Mark Jordan Offline
Member

Registered: 06/09/10
Posts: 138
Loc: Burbank, California
I'm not an expert on this but I've read some years back 2 books on this namely:

Xingyiquan: Theory, Applications, Fighting Tactics and Spirit. This book presents traditional Xingyiquan training.

Xing Yi Quan Xue: The Study of Form-Mind Boxing - this would be a difficult to understand though if you know nothing about this art.

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#430969 - 11/23/10 07:19 AM Re: Questions Regarding Xingyiquan [Re: Mark Jordan]
Shi Ronglang Offline
石榮狼
Member

Registered: 09/14/10
Posts: 91
Loc: Samarobriva, Gallia
Not my main style, but I've practiced it briefly... I enjoyed it a lot, it actually shares a lot of similarities with baji-quan (the style I normally train in). Close distance fighting with short, powerful strikes. Its military origins clearly show. Like in many Chinese styles, the mechanics of power-generation are very subtle, and in this case power comes mostly from the ground. Basically, there has to be a strong (if often twisted) line going from one of your feet up to the tip of your fist, so that the power with which you push the ground away with your leg is conveyed into your punch (which is pretty much the process going on when you push a car).

Not particularly pretty (with the exception of its imitative forms), but when done right, boy is it powerful! My instructor once demonstrated the mechanics of the basic xingyi-quan stance by having our club's strongest guy, a 34-year-old weight-lifter, try to push against him. My instructor, who's a short 53 y.o. Chinese-Vietnamese, wouldn't budge... and then proceeded to effortlessly hurl my friend a few yards back with a sudden push. shocked

It is one of my friends' forte, I'll ask him for advice on good reads regarding the style. wink
_________________________
Wen wu shuang quan

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#430970 - 11/23/10 09:21 AM Re: Questions Regarding Xingyiquan [Re: Shi Ronglang]
ilhe4e12345 Offline
Newbie

Registered: 11/18/10
Posts: 18
Loc: PA
Mark: thank you for the information on the books. i will def look into these as i am very interested in the style.

Shi Ronglang: I just had my first lesson on this style this past sunday. I only learned one of the elements (Pi) and by just doing that i can already feel a much stronger platform in my stance and the strike of that punch.....amazing. Any information is greatly appreciated laugh.

The style is not very pretty, but i am not looking to be showy or have style...i want it to be affective. i am not worried about looking good like in Wushu all thought i fully respect anybody into the showman portion of martial arts. i love how simple yet powerful Xingyiquan is and i have only learned 1 part of it....i cannot wait to learn more.

My main goal is to learn 7 Star Preying Mantis which is what my teach originally began starting me on and i will continue to learn that but i am also very interested in Xingyi. So during the winter months i will be taking up Xingyi practicing the footwork and after the winter i should have a good platform of footwork and stance balance so that i can get back into staff work and mantis smile

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#430972 - 11/23/10 10:36 AM Re: Questions Regarding Xingyiquan [Re: ilhe4e12345]
Shi Ronglang Offline
石榮狼
Member

Registered: 09/14/10
Posts: 91
Loc: Samarobriva, Gallia
I had learnt one taolu from qi-xing tanglang-quan four years ago or so, I believe. That's pretty much all I know about the style, but I liked it. I've wanted to try getting it back for some time; if I eventually get my mind to do it maybe we can trade tips... smile

A piece of advice if you want to boost you stances: train them on cans. Lay two cans of beans (or whatever else) upstraight, as far apart as your feet should be for the particular stance you want to train, and just stand your stance on them for a few minutes. You should do it as often as you can, that's a tremendous tool to improve the stability of your footwork. wink
_________________________
Wen wu shuang quan

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#432339 - 05/08/11 09:30 AM Re: Questions Regarding Xingyiquan [Re: ilhe4e12345]
Owen_Schilling Offline
Stranger

Registered: 05/08/11
Posts: 2
Loc: Boulder, Colorado, USA
I have been practicing and teaching Xingyi Quan for about 15 years. I love it i think, with a good teacher, it is a practical martial art on many levels (martial, health, mental, etc)the difficulty always lies in finding a good teacher.

Good Luck.

Sincerely
Owen

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#433853 - 09/22/11 11:51 PM Re: Questions Regarding Xingyiquan [Re: Owen_Schilling]
Jade Dragon Offline
Newbie

Registered: 09/22/11
Posts: 24
Loc: Alaska, USA
Have a new book out that details Hsing-i (Xing Yi) 5 elements with step by step photos. 12 animals are described.

Emphasis is on the internal, standing and moving Qigong.

Book is described at http://www.jadedragonalaska.com/book.php

Be happy to describe it furhter on request.

my martial background is at: http://www.jadedragonalaska.com/martial-background.php
_________________________
The Author of the new book Axe Hand; Hsing-i & Internal Strength Workout

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#433861 - 09/23/11 11:27 AM Re: Questions Regarding Xingyiquan [Re: Jade Dragon]
Jade Dragon Offline
Newbie

Registered: 09/22/11
Posts: 24
Loc: Alaska, USA
Tai Chi and Hsing-i Differrences

•In Tai Chi the head is held as if slightly suspended from above, whereas in Hsing-i, the crown of the head gently presses upward, the bai hui point at the crown part of the head, has the feeling of being sucked inward;

•In Hsing-i, the teeth are slightly clenched but Tai Chi has them only touching;

•Hsing-i has a unique scissor step for directing earth root and whole body power;

•the so-called emotional mind, Xing, is not to be suppressed in Xing-i but guided by the thinking mind: this emotional mind
Animals use this emotional based mind because it is quicker;
senses to the thalamus, then to the amygdale in 12 milliseconds, most 'civilized' people use the cortex which takes twice the time at 24 milliseconds.

•Most Tai Chi practitiioners issue Qi for martial force, Hsing-i will use Qi also, but focus on Fa Jing (quick explosive internal power).

A good example of Fa Jing was when Kou Yu Chang slapped the back of a horse, and exploded the horses internal organs without any damage to the surface skin.

A major difference of Hsing-i, is that the first mind, the so-called emotional mind, Xing, is not to be suppressed, rather it is cultivated since Xing Yi imitates the animal form, mind and spirit. Most men in a fight; cannot match a wild animal half their weight.

In some other internal martial arts, and Qi Gong; the emotional mind is suppressed and dominated by Yi, the wisdom mind. This emotional mind is the fastest, as it is travels from the thalamus, then to the amygdale.

The renown researcher of the neurology of fear, Dr. Joseph DeLoux of New York University, in his book The Emotional Brain, found that there are two kinds of fear in the brain: fast fear and slow fear.

Fast fear travels the low road of the brain: senses to thalamus, then to the amygdale, which is located deep within the brain on the temporal sides; time 12 milliseconds. Traditional philosophy represents this separation as horse mind (slow) controlling the monkey mind (fast).

Slow fear travels the high road of the brain: senses to thalamus which sends it to the cortex (higher up); time 24 milliseconds. Both systems occur simultaneously, with the same sense data, the theory being that you cannot have speed and accuracy on the same circuit. Bear in mind, this is not the time to process the information, or physically move to react.

12 milliseconds or 1 hundredth of a second might not seem like much difference, but consider that there are some people that can beat a flash. Beating a flash is blinking your eyes when a photo is shot with a flash. The difference in speed between the flash, and camera shutter is one fiftieth of a second, or 2 hundredths. I and others can beat it trying, and by surprise, some just by surprise. Memory and choice have to go to the cortex, so they are slower; test your reaction theory with the flash.

With the foot steps, the true idea is to not fall into emptiness. Disperse the breath. The issuing is totally in the rear foot. Store up the intent. You need to protect the groin. If the beginning posture is good, then use ‘Sweeping the Ground Wind’.

Rooted steps are the scissor handles of the scissor-stepping that are driving the martial motion through one’s Lower Dan Tien (scissor’s axis pivoting point), that focuses the strike forward (scissor’s cutting tip).

In every movement, watch your Yi. When Yi generates the idea for movement, the Qi will be immediately led to the end section, starting the movement of the end section. The middle section follows and the root section urges the movement. This is not the same as Tai Chi, because the body in Hsing-i is more like rattan than water. Even though it is flexible, the body is hard so when the Yi is generated on the target, the tip can move first, and the power is pushed from the body and the root section.

Stomp while advancing; as a one would off a trampoline to launch a strike. This has a pedaling action forward, wtih the front foot directing and shaping the force issued by the rear foot.

The eyes must be venomous: acute, sharp and stern, with a mean and serious look. Your original Qi must be full and abundant in order to have these. Therefore, when practicing fist methods, it is training Qi and Li. Training Li is able to strengthen the body, and training Qi is able to enhance the spirit of vitality. Those whose Kung fu is deep, are able to gather the Qi at the Lower Dan Tien and the five internal organs are comfortable and expanded.

The highest level of achievement: the mind is mindless; you do nothing and have done everything. In the emptiness we find prenatal bodies. If you try too hard, it will elude you. Instead of trying to achieve it, pretend you already have it. The mind embodies your actions: therefore, Hsing-i is mind boxing.

This can not be reached through force or simply imitating.
See Entrainment

When it is time to be calm, it is quite and transparent. In this position, you are steady like a mountain.

In the beginning of the movement, the body remains soft so Qi can be led to the limbs. Hsing-i Jin is similar to rattan, soft and bending, yet hard when it strikes. The power is manifested like a cannonball exploding.

Learning Hsing-i:

•in the beginning it will appear simple and easy,

•when first trying the move it will appear complicated and difficult,

•after mastering Hsing-i, it will become direct and simple easily executed.

Martial Qi flows like mercury.

Some Traditional Internal Chinese Martial Arts, will heat and redden the practitioner’s palms, Hsing-i can heat the entire room!
From: http://www.jadedragonalaska.com/hsing-i.php
_________________________
The Author of the new book Axe Hand; Hsing-i & Internal Strength Workout

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#433863 - 09/23/11 11:38 AM Re: Questions Regarding Xingyiquan [Re: Jade Dragon]
Jade Dragon Offline
Newbie

Registered: 09/22/11
Posts: 24
Loc: Alaska, USA
More Hsing-i Books

XingYiquan, Theory, Applications, fighting Tactics and Spirit: by Liang, Shou-Yu & Dr. Yang, Jwing-Ming.

Chinese Mind-Boxing, by Robert Smith, Advise From the Masters, by KuoYun-Shen

Hsing-I: Chinese Mind-Body Boxing by Robert Smith, from Kodansha Press in Japan (1981, ISBN 0-87011-476-X, but his new book called Hsing Yi, with his student is not recommended, due to its external focus. Good reprinting recently: Hsing-I book title, now Hsing-i: Chinese Mind-Body Boxing, originally ISBN 1-55643-455-3 by North Atlantic Books.

Classical Xingyi Quan Vol 111, Xingyi Mu Quan (Mother Fist) by Jiang Rongqiao (1929), translated by Joseph Crandell (1999), Smiling Tiger Martial Arts, Pinole, CA, 94564.
This is an excellent translation by Joseph. He learned from Peter Ralston who learned from Grandmaster Wong Jack Man.

Xing Yi Nei Gong by Dan Miller and Tim Cartwell 1994, High View Publishing, Pacific Grove ISBN 1-883175-04-6.
This book is known for securing and transmitting information from old Hsing-I manuals and collecting in one volume.
_________________________
The Author of the new book Axe Hand; Hsing-i & Internal Strength Workout

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#433907 - 09/30/11 11:54 AM The Xingyi Quan of the Chinese Army [Re: ilhe4e12345]
Jade Dragon Offline
Newbie

Registered: 09/22/11
Posts: 24
Loc: Alaska, USA
The Xingyi Quan of the Chinese Army, by Dennis Rovere

I do not agree with some parts of the book, yet nevertheless see it overall as a positive step in the right direction of some classical Hsing-i internals fundamentals.

Since there are a number of concepts that were not published before the 2008 copyright; I highly recommend the book; let the reader sort out for themselves what applies and what does not.

I have not finished the book yet; but some things that caught my attention are outlined below.

“It is rumored that Yue Fei’s Xingyi fist book (a secret text) was developed by Da Mo while he was staying at Song Shan [Song Mountain]. He developed this system for conditioning the body.”
Preface xxix

This gives a clear reference to Hsing-i’s Buddhist origin.

A number of good points that until then; had not been explicitly stated were on pages 8-9:

“Left shoulder bends while right shoulder follows the body. This allows strength to reach the hand. …

Left hand drops slightly while right hand stretches with power. …

Like a bow, but not exactly like a bow. …

All of the toes should grab the floor. …

If the position is too low the power will be lost. That is why it is better to be higher.”

These all apply to a scissor stepping a moving root and a firmness that is not externally fixed. This firmness is not rigid but ‘stretches’.

Although knowledge in book appears sound, not all of the example photos are. On page 17, it shows two pictures at the bottom; with what appears to the author Dennis Rovere;
Leaning his torso forward, and extending his head. I do not do this, nor do I recommend it, since it causes one to be less rooted, and more committed to a forward motion. One who is skilled will see this forward leaning and lead the person with their own energy. I do not see this in the photos of the old time practitioners.

Page 105: “Right foot gives support by pushing up against the floor. This position is the same as splitting fist.”

This drives the step and the strike.

‘Rising and Falling’ are used by many classics to describe the action in Metal/splitting Fist (Axe Hand). This is a tenet as well in the staring position.

Before the forward hand is thrust out and downward (splitting-chopping), the opposite hand should be raised up vertically; as in the uppercut in Water.

This is not done by Rovere in his photo on page 16; Figure2-3m1; the two hands are on a near horizontal plane; rather than increasing the angle to a closer vertical relationship.

Much of the sinking power is lost with this method; and even more when it is mistakenly applied in linking form turns.

Hsing-I Dragon, although not covered in this book; also uses the rising and falling also; even more so; so the mistake’s impact is even more debilitating. More detailed steps explained in the book Axe Hand; Hsing-i & Internal Strength Workout; under Metal.
_________________________
The Author of the new book Axe Hand; Hsing-i & Internal Strength Workout

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