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#434045 - 10/23/11 08:27 PM Re: Adrenaline: How to get familiar with the effects? [Re: solobest]
47MartialMan Offline
Member

Registered: 11/17/04
Posts: 180
Scientists would disagree bout humans having instincts

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#434047 - 10/24/11 08:57 PM Re: Adrenaline: How to get familiar with the effects? [Re: 47MartialMan]
duanew Offline
Member

Registered: 06/28/08
Posts: 326
Loc: MN
There are instinctual responses to stress...so what do you mean?

Duane

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#434541 - 01/27/12 01:10 PM Re: Adrenaline: How to get familiar with the effects? [Re: Bulletman]
Stormdragon Offline
Who Dares Wins
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Registered: 08/05/04
Posts: 3409
Loc: Salem, OR
Originally Posted By: Bulletman
I disagree with this completely!

In any sparring, even MMA or UFC type there are 'rules' in real fights there are no rules. If you are skilled in grappling and you are in a tussle on the ground unlike in the ring/octagon there are no rules to say someone else wont start laying the boot in! You have to be prepared for the unexpected you just dont get that in sparring!

I love martial arts and will practice them until the day I die but they all have limitations unless you practice under adrenal stress and no rules!


So are you saying you practice full on with no rules? I doubt that. Because unless you do nothing you do will somehow be better. ALL practice has rules. I'm familiar with the Bulletman, FAST stuff, having people scream and yell at you is great, adding in odd environmental conditions is great too, and you can make that a part of sparring/rolling for self defense, on the other hand beating on a dude in a thick heavy suit with restricted movements is not somehow superiors to actual sparring. And I don't care how many rules there are, or who is reffing, when you are sparring, really sparring you will deal with some adrenaline for awhile and learn to handle adrenaline well because someone is HITTING YOU FOR REAL. I've seen guys get knocked out and choked out more than once in sparring and rolling, I've even been knocked out once or twice. That is scary to face. I don't need someone to bite me and pull my hair to experience an adrenaline rush in sparring, and learn to overcome that (as well as the adrenaline rush that comes with competition and is much more pronounced than in practice). Psychologically, that adrenaline dumb that comes in competition or your first day doing hard sparring with a good fighter is really no different at all than what is experienced in a street fight. the only difference is environmental conditions which an be adjusted around the sparring session. Have you been in the cage, or competed n some form of NHB, submission grappling, kickboxing, or other similar competition? If not how would you know what that feels like and how close the feeling is to the adrenaline dump faced in a street fight? Now, remember, this thread is about the adrenaline not specific techniques to watch out for on the street vs. practice.

Were you aware that in the Army our close combat system is based entirely around BJJ and kickboxing, and the primary training methods are drilling and sparring/rolling? There's a reason for that (i.e. it works). Now we add unique scenarios like throwing in a training knife, or using our skills while going through rooms, but the concept of force on force training between two people is still there. We don't train by beating on a guy with a thick suit and a massive puffy hat on who acts out street scenarios and provides half assed pushes and grabs (which is what I've seen from all of the FAST stuff). I'm sure that stuff doesn't hurt any but it's not really the optimal way to train honestly. Some of that acting out of tense conflicts as far as the psychological phase is concerned can be good sure, but to brush off sparring/rolling because it doesn't involve "no rules" is absurd when we both know you don't train with no rules agaisnt someone really trying to hurt you and the bulletman fighting stuff is kind of the estranged 3rd cousin twice removed of sparring, it's just a weaker version of it. Now, the surprise part is an issue, but you can't really do much to actually train for that. And in that case awareness and avoidance comes into play.


Edited by Stormdragon (01/27/12 01:48 PM)
_________________________
Member of DaJoGen MMA school under Dave Hagen and Team Chaos fight team under Denver Mangiyatan and Chris Toquero, ran out of Zanshin Martial Arts in Salem Oregon: http://www.zanshinarts.org/Home.aspx,

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#434542 - 01/27/12 01:16 PM Re: Adrenaline: How to get familiar with the effects? [Re: 47MartialMan]
Stormdragon Offline
Who Dares Wins
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Registered: 08/05/04
Posts: 3409
Loc: Salem, OR
Originally Posted By: 47MartialMan
Scientists would disagree bout humans having instincts


No they wouldn't, ask Stephen Pinker. It's pretty well established that we are not blank slates upon birth but a combination of genetic instincts (pre-wiring) and learning.
_________________________
Member of DaJoGen MMA school under Dave Hagen and Team Chaos fight team under Denver Mangiyatan and Chris Toquero, ran out of Zanshin Martial Arts in Salem Oregon: http://www.zanshinarts.org/Home.aspx,

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#434543 - 01/27/12 01:22 PM Re: Adrenaline: How to get familiar with the effects? [Re: gojuman59]
Stormdragon Offline
Who Dares Wins
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Registered: 08/05/04
Posts: 3409
Loc: Salem, OR
Originally Posted By: gojuman59
Originally Posted By: 47MartialMan
Training can never get you to a level of stress per par as actual fighting


I agree 100% When you take a big hit in training most likely your opponent will give you time if your bell is rung. On the street your opponent will see you this way and wade on in to finish you off.Big difference.

Mark


In boxing maybe, but in mma we're taught when we have our training partner stunned to keep coming and cover them but dial the power way way down while still keeping the pace and motion (or just clinch and transition to grappling) and so the aggressor learns to keep attacking a hurt opponent and the other guy learns to put up a defense and stay calm when they are hurt. Those instincts will still largely be there on the street because that training wires neural connections (what people call instincts) to do that without thinking.
_________________________
Member of DaJoGen MMA school under Dave Hagen and Team Chaos fight team under Denver Mangiyatan and Chris Toquero, ran out of Zanshin Martial Arts in Salem Oregon: http://www.zanshinarts.org/Home.aspx,

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#434554 - 01/29/12 12:28 PM Re: Adrenaline: How to get familiar with the effects? [Re: Stormdragon]
47MartialMan Offline
Member

Registered: 11/17/04
Posts: 180
Doing things without "so call thinking" is not a instinct.

When we are taught how to drive, after practice, we can operate a vehicle "without thinking" i.e. braking, acceleration, signaling...etc..

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#434574 - 01/31/12 03:52 PM Re: Adrenaline: How to get familiar with the effects? [Re: 47MartialMan]
Stormdragon Offline
Who Dares Wins
Professional Poster

Registered: 08/05/04
Posts: 3409
Loc: Salem, OR
While yes that's technically true it's what most people know actions that don't require thinking as so it's a convenient term. And for the record we do have instincts, we do have in-born behavioral traits. No reputable psychologist in the world would tell you we're a blank slate anymore that hasn't been a well accepted idea since B.F. Skinner was alive and active.

Here's a resource on that by Stephen Pinker, a well-respected researcher: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Blank_Slate also see twin studies. Our behavior is a combination of nature AND nurture, not one or the other.


Edited by Stormdragon (01/31/12 04:28 PM)
_________________________
Member of DaJoGen MMA school under Dave Hagen and Team Chaos fight team under Denver Mangiyatan and Chris Toquero, ran out of Zanshin Martial Arts in Salem Oregon: http://www.zanshinarts.org/Home.aspx,

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#434580 - 02/01/12 10:13 AM Re: Adrenaline: How to get familiar with the effects? [Re: Stormdragon]
iaibear Offline
Veteran

Registered: 08/24/05
Posts: 1304
Loc: upstate New York
I've always called it "motor memory"

Had a great example two nights ago in Aikido class.
Sensei set up a randori. The "big guys" were called onto the floor. And then I was, too, and told I was "up".

I have since heard I did rather well. I do not remember a bit of it. Motor Memory the whole way.


Edited by iaibear (02/01/12 10:21 AM)
Edit Reason: needed an example

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#434585 - 02/01/12 10:58 PM Re: Adrenaline: How to get familiar with the effects? [Re: iaibear]
Stormdragon Offline
Who Dares Wins
Professional Poster

Registered: 08/05/04
Posts: 3409
Loc: Salem, OR
I suppose the most accurate term would be conditioned responses. But I'd rather just call them instincts.
_________________________
Member of DaJoGen MMA school under Dave Hagen and Team Chaos fight team under Denver Mangiyatan and Chris Toquero, ran out of Zanshin Martial Arts in Salem Oregon: http://www.zanshinarts.org/Home.aspx,

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#434588 - 02/02/12 09:33 AM Re: Adrenaline: How to get familiar with the effects? [Re: Stormdragon]
iaibear Offline
Veteran

Registered: 08/24/05
Posts: 1304
Loc: upstate New York
Shouldn't I be able to remember "conditioned responses"?

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