This discussion has been great to read. The process of stress inoculation is, duh, stressful, and I find it useful to be reminded by others about its benefits. For me at least, the process of getting habituated to pain and fear (especially combined) is long, slow and has setbacks with new kinds of injury. At least in a repeated and controlled situation, you can start to recognize the signs in yourself (oh yeah, this again, ignore for now).

One anomalous thing I've noticed about pain in the dojo and pain in a real situation is that in the dojo, paradoxically, it seems more severe at the time. In a real life situation, you're so full of adrenalin and endorphins, you don't even notice some injuries until hours later. Eight hours later, you feel like a tractor ran over you. In the dojo, you're not at that level of arousal and you feel everything right away. Even better as a training tool, I suppose.

Exactly, they are figuring it out for themselves, so you can only put a certain amount to the training, and the rest is down to some unknown quantity. I really don't feel the answer of "well it worked for this guy so it must be 100% true" is a very well thought out one.

Cord:

Both my Karate teachers were Judoka as well, i've done a small bit myself..I know it can be used "for real".

However, that does not excuse an uncritical attitude towards martial arts, just because you saw something work does not mean the training is flawless and needs no modification to be "street" stuff. There ARE people out there teaching "street Judo"...I imagine if the felt this wasn't necessary or valuable, they would just teach the shiai stuff.

This attitude of "resistance = reality" is a bit naive for me, there is some truth there..anyone wanting real skills has to test and understand them against someone actively resisting. However it seems to me it has to be acknowledge that what you are resisting against has an effect on the equation. The rules of engagement are definitely going to effect how you do things. If you grapple slowly and start to include punches..it changes how you grapple, if you start to slowly include things like eye gouges and groin shots..it changes again. This of course doesn't mean you can "beat" a grappler with dirty techniques, but it does show that the way you actually grapple can end up being very different with the inclusion of this stuff.

The whole "sport is street" can also end up being viewed as a panacea too, where people believe they don't need to widen their point of view because they have experienced "resistance" in the dojo or gym. I can see where that kind of attitude could be bad, even though the people in question are already great fighters in one respect..being a great fighter alone is a narrow skillset if we are talking about actually having to defend yourself from assault or some such.

It seems to me that training ones art from a broader perspective, with emphasis on what you are actually trying to accomplish (be it competitive victory, self defense, whatever) is a more honest and rational attitude than simply trying to pick "sport vs. street".

Totally agree and it almost goes without saying this is not a point I was making. I simply used Judo as an example of something that could be used outside of class. It won't work all of the time and it isn't suitable for every situation, but what is?



We have already mentioned (and I believe agreed upon) the idea that a person can figure a certain amount out for themselves though. Accepting that this is possible, does this mean that a person is not going to constantly be restricted to the parameters of their MA training?

I think many people are just navel-gazing when they talk about street stuff.

Everyone starts from this ass-backwards attitude (MMA and TMA) of trying to prove what they already do works on "da street".

It seems to me more logical to have an open-ended approach to training where you look at the holes that are created by any kind of rule-bound approach if you are honestly trying to train for "street stuff". Rather than the approach most seem to take which is "well, we do this, so we are ready".

The whole )(*&^ing point is that life is chaotic and the very act of claiming you are "street ready" is probably a really indication that you aren't.

and I think that when it comes down to it, people who havent had any real life violent encounters tend to dramatise and develop overly elaborate demons in the fears of their 'what if's'. Real world attacks are remarkably similar, and tend to come from a pretty narrow field of motivation. For sure the mindset of a sport fight does not include making opportunity to run, nor is their the need to read the escalatory process. Indeed, de-escalation and non physical response is not an issue for a fighter- a completely unneeded skillset. Could that blind spot lead to putting themselves in more danger? Possibly. But then, creating space is creating space, and controlling distance is controlling distance, so palms open, or guard up, its the same dance.

When it comes down to it, when its you being grabbed, or swung at, you either have the tools to deal with it (mental and physical) or you dont. Any and every fighting art in the world have principles and techniques within them that can work, but they need to be trained in such a way as to make you used to being hurt while applying them, and the act of application being resisted against. Hip toss, left hook, arm lock/come along, it really doesnt matter if you learned them in pyjamas down your local YMCA, in combat fatigues in your local Krav class, or in your lycra budgie-smugglers at your local MMA cage. The only thing that is important is that when you come to apply them, you can do so.

An important aspect of progressive sparring and hard resistance, is that it can develop a taste for a fight - and when that happens, you can think a damn site more clearly in the midst of one than someone who has trained 'for self defence' from a mindset that is essentialy fear of violence.

And guys who have *cough* worked doors or something seem to think that what they've seen there is everything

Good points, I think you are over-generalizing a bit, but I agree with much of that.

The bottomline is, all the scnario training and and fight-edning techniques in the world won't help you as much as basic MMA/boxing/MT if there is no resistance, because all your skill means nothing if you're not used to gettign beat on and fighting through it. Obviously the ideal for self defense is lot's of sparring as well as scenarior drills with odd situatiosn that also include resistance, regardless of technique, however if you have to choose between just one on one "sport" training with hard resistance and scnariors/brutal techniques and zero or barely any technique, you need to choose the former, I've seen this in action plenty of times, guys who don't do hard sparring/rolling fold up in a fight and can't adapt to changing situations as easily as people who spar/roll every day, even if it's just one on one sport training, because the guys who "fight" it out are used to thinking under stress. Being familiar with unique situatiosn is useless if you aren't use to stress of real fighting. And Zach, you seem like you give untrained street brawlers way, way too much credit, 90% of dudes off the street can be beaten with the most basic boxing and wrestling techniques. And the most important part of SD training, above and beyond everything else is awareness and avoidance.

Now it's true, I agree, that some pure BJJ or pure thai boxing or whatever sport fighting can allow for thigns that when you bring other skills in, will get you beat the fact is though MMA ties it all together. For SD it's good to add in odd environmental conditions or positiong at the start, but if you can defend against someone grabbing your collar while in your guard, you can dfend agaisnt someone grabbing your balls in your guard, if you can defend against a front kick to the body you can defend against a front kick to the crotch, you don't need to drill those things as separate skilsl and create separate defenses. If I can defend against someone going for my collar when they have me mounted I can defend against someone going for my eyes when they have me mounted, MMA puts you under nearly all of the potential lines of attack, the target itself only changes the game slightly. In pure BJJ pulling guard is great, in the street it's not, but it's also really bad in MMA. We don't learn to handle a sucker punch but nothign trains you for that, it's awareness. Someone grabs your wrist, or does a two handed frotn choke standing, we don't need special techniques for that, if you train clinch work you're good to go. Multiple attackers? You're most likely f'ed no matter what you train, awareness is what helps, and just being able to quickly move around on your feet, and having the common sense to move to the flanks so you aren't surrounded. The only other stuff to add in for SD is sparring on a harder surface, or throwing in training weapons randomly (those are soem examples of how the Army adapts MMA to real life). The fudnamentals are the same and the concept of resistance is the same regardless.

I guess Zach, I have to ask, what does TMA offer for self defense/street fighting that MMA doesn't (or can't even with some additional "odd" drills)? Finally a good, heavy discussion picks up on here.

Why do you want to have a contest about which is better?

Is it the job of this entity called "TMA" to prove it has something to offer you? If you don't like it, don't do it. It sounds like you left it in the past, so good for you.

What made you think I was even making an argument that TMA is "better" some how? If you'll notice, I never said anything like that at all. What I take issue with is this idea that training in a martial sport allows you to claim you have the best "self defense" training available..not because you can't fight (it's safe to say with combat sport training you are learning to fight), but because actually being able to survive "street" stuff is likely to be a skillset that isn't just about fighting anyway. How many gyms practice getting away from stuff? I'm willing to be it's not many. That's a big difference in mentality.

You are correct that alot of TMA training lacks realism, but that has nothing to do with any of the criticisms i've been making. Basically i'm saying that just because THEY lack realism, that does not make YOUR training the final word for 'street' stuff in my opinion. Honestly i'd be more interested in what a LEO or a criminal has to say about "the street" than someone who trains in a gym or dojo, regardless of resistance or any of that.

Also, if you actually paid attention to the things i've posted, you would notice nowhere did I say it was unnecessary to train with some level of resistance, of course you have to somehow put stuff to the test.

For the )(&^ing love of god stop sounding like a loop pf Matt Thornton or something, there is more to a broad discussion of something like this than simply whether or not someone has resistance in their training..certainly that's important, but if you think that it the only factor effecting real world use I'd say you are dead wrong.



Cool, enlighten me, what is "awareness", and how and why would that help against multiple attackers?

Please no more about resistance, i've been training for something like fifteen years now, I know the value of actually being able to DO stuff instead of just theorizing about it, and I learned that a long time ago.. I don't need a lecture on it.

Zach- A. it depends on what you're after, neither is better in general and B. somethigns are better then others in soem respects, hate to break it to you but that's just how life works, things aren't always equal. In any case, it doesn't have to prove anything, but if you're goign to get into a discussion comparing them then you really SHOULD prove your points. On Matt Thronton, the guy has had a lot of success teaching peopel to fight, what's your point with that comment on him? Awareness? Being able to notice details in your envbironent that can help you see trouble coming and avoid it, noticing options available if trouble does come your way. Careful assuming I'm just throwing terms out there without actually understanding them, I'm a soldier, awareness in particular is part of my job. Same thing with my job, havign awareness is not beign oblivious to signs of impending danger. As for your 15 years training, lot's of peopel with that kind of training time "know" the value of testing their skills but often don't actually do it or know how to do it, now you are probably not one of them, but it's true, and most often they are TMA people. You never answered my question of what does TMA have to offer as far as self defense is concerned that MMA doesn't (and please note I'm using the term TMA in reference to your typical american Karate or TKD school not what was done 100 years ago, it's not really relevant when no one does it that way anymore really)? And I'm not saying it has ZERO use in teaching peopel to protect themselves, I'm just asking what it offers that MMA doesn't? It's a very specific question, not askign which is better.