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#433092 - 07/05/11 12:03 PM Re: David Haye vs Wladimir Klitschko [Re: trevek]
Zombie Zero Offline
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Registered: 06/17/05
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Christy won't be polluting the forums anymore.
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#433107 - 07/06/11 05:09 AM Re: David Haye vs Wladimir Klitschko [Re: Prizewriter]
Stormdragon Offline
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Registered: 08/05/04
Posts: 3409
Loc: Salem, OR
Originally Posted By: Prizewriter
I think he would've given anyone a run for their money:

Tyson - Ok, I think a prime Tyson would beat Klitch, but then again IMO I don't know if ANYONE would've coped with Tyson in his prime (including Ali).

Frazier/Marciano - Too small. If a 6'3" 210lb David Haye was too small, a 6' 205lb Frazier would struggle, and a 5'11 187lb Marciano would've been destroyed.

Foreman - Possibly yes. I think Klitch is a better athelete though and has overall better stamina but Big George was terrifying in his prime.

Dempsey - No chance. Dempsey was a brawler. He had no finesse at all. For all Tyson's ferocity, it was based in a rock solid foundation in boxing principles. Gene Tunney, a 6' 190lb ex-marine (and one of the forefathers of modern boxing) was able to totally out-think and outbox Dempsey. A 6'5" 240lb master tactician like Wlad would've destroyed Dempsey. Dempsey thrived in an era of brawlers and tough guys. Once Tunney and others like him started introducing an art and science to boxing, it hearlded the end for guys like Dempsey.

Back to 2011, it looks like it could be the last fight for Haye. There doesn't seem to be anyone left for the Klitschko brothers to fight at the moment.


Jack Dempsey easily demolished 250 lbs. 6'6" Jess Willar hardly breaking a sweat. The only heavyweight I've ever see with eaqually skillfull head movement was Tyson and MAYBE Frazier. True he lost twice to a very artful boxer in Gene Tunney but they were decision losses and Gene Tunney was no less skilled, though much small then Klitch I'll grant you that. As for Marciano and Frazier, well Marciano hit incredibly hard for his size, had a chin of stone and knew how to stifle tall, logn armed and skillful boxers. Frazier, meh Klitch might be a tough fight for even a prime Frazier, it's hard to say. Foreman would have hospitalised Klitch if he was in his prime, Ali was much better then Klitch at the same kind of style. Foreman was bigger, had a way better record and Klitch lost to much lesser opponents. And I think you're mistaking Dempsey's unique style as bad boxing technique when it was just a different approach. He beat some real good boxers, you win some you lose some. He was far from just a brawler I think few boxing historians woudl agree that he had no technique, he was a master of infighting and bobbing and weaving.
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#433108 - 07/06/11 05:13 AM Re: David Haye vs Wladimir Klitschko [Re: Stormdragon]
Stormdragon Offline
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I think Klitch in the 70's and 80's would be a top 10 or top 5 probably, but I don't think he ever would have been champion. The consensus is that today's heavies aren't of the same quality as the ones of that era. Compared to Tyson, Frazier, and Dempsey Hay's head movement isn't that great, his slipping is ok but still not on the same level. And he doesn't hit as hard. Frazier moved better and hit harder then Haye and beat Ali once at least and Ali was WAY more skilled then Klitch. Foreman was just a monster same as Tyson I'm not sure anyone could beat one of them in their prime except each other. Marciano and Dempsey would be the least likely to win but still would have a chance, both could potentially hurt Klitch real bad, especially Marciano and Marciano was real tough to hit clealy as well.


Edited by Stormdragon (07/06/11 05:24 AM)
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#433109 - 07/06/11 06:16 AM Re: David Haye vs Wladimir Klitschko [Re: Stormdragon]
Prizewriter Offline
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Registered: 10/23/05
Posts: 2573
I think Dempsey was one dimensional, put it that way. Tunney beat him with sound strategy and superior boxing skills. Klitch (with Manny Steward) would figure out how to handle someone like Dempsey without too much trouble. Agree though that Ali, Foreman and Tyson would likely beat Klitch. The others we will agree to disagree on.
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"Let your food be your medicine, and your medicine be your food" Hippocrates.

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#433120 - 07/06/11 08:23 PM Re: David Haye vs Wladimir Klitschko [Re: Prizewriter]
Stormdragon Offline
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Registered: 08/05/04
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Loc: Salem, OR
Meh alright. Tunney was way ahead of his time. You have to admit though that a TKO over Joe Louis, arguably one of the most skilled boxers of all time, says a lot about Marciano and his ability to handle really technical fighters.
_________________________
Member of DaJoGen MMA school under Dave Hagen and Team Chaos fight team under Denver Mangiyatan and Chris Toquero, ran out of Zanshin Martial Arts in Salem Oregon: http://www.zanshinarts.org/Home.aspx,

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#433131 - 07/07/11 09:37 AM Re: David Haye vs Wladimir Klitschko [Re: Stormdragon]
Prizewriter Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 10/23/05
Posts: 2573
Not trying to take anything away from Rocky, but I feel it's only fair to point out that Joe Louise was 37 years old at that point and this ended up being his last professional boxing match. I wouldn't say he fought Joe at his best though. He did beat him all the same. Fair enough Kiltch is 35, but he hasn't been in many wars and is pretty fresh. Joe Louis on the other hand was fighting every 2 months, even when he was the champ. I think Rocky got him at the right time. Again though, we'll agree to disagree.
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"Let your food be your medicine, and your medicine be your food" Hippocrates.

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#433160 - 07/09/11 05:19 AM Re: David Haye vs Wladimir Klitschko [Re: Prizewriter]
trevek Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/15/05
Posts: 3337
Loc: Poland
good point, Prizewriter. These days there's so much money etc that boxers seem to fight so rarely when compared with those in the past. Shame, I want my champions to show themselves a bit more.
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#433161 - 07/09/11 05:38 AM Re: David Haye vs Wladimir Klitschko [Re: trevek]
Prizewriter Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 10/23/05
Posts: 2573
Believe it or not I actually don't mind modern boxers fighting less. Ok, fighting once a year isn't great, but if they only fight 2-3 times a year at championship level, that's fine by me. Two reasons why:

1) Imagine having to pay out PPV to watch your favourite boxer 6 or 7 times a year!

2) More importantly is the safety factor. Less and less I notice fighters with symptoms of Dementia Pugilistica when they retire, which is a good thing. Fighters from back in the day often exhibited signs of Dementia Pugilistica when they quit. Boxing is still a dangerous sport, but anything that can be done to reduce the risk in boxing is a good thing. If it means I only get to see my favourite boxer 2/3 times a year, so be it.
_________________________
"Let your food be your medicine, and your medicine be your food" Hippocrates.

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#433214 - 07/11/11 05:22 PM Re: David Haye vs Wladimir Klitschko [Re: Prizewriter]
trevek Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/15/05
Posts: 3337
Loc: Poland
Safety reasons apart (and I agree with you totally), I'd say the reason they only have to fight once a year is because of things like PPV.

Incidentally, have you seen Wladimir's silent film? Superb!
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See how well I block your punches with my jaw!!

Supporting everyone saying "nuts to cancer"

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#433310 - 07/17/11 06:10 AM Re: David Haye vs Wladimir Klitschko [Re: trevek]
Cord Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/13/05
Posts: 11399
Loc: Cambridge UK.
Wow, I missed all this - been on holiday. Why is Christy so upset? Did I date her in my youth? If I did, she was a forgettable lay. Also, I am not a demon, so knowing my true name doesnt give anyone power over me. Just thought i would clarify that for any other haters out there wink

Anyway, belatedly, regarding the fight, I was utterly dismayed by Haye, his pre-fight shenanigans, his in-fight performance, and his post-fight excuse making.

A broken little toe does not, in any way, explain his poor performance. Big toe? yes, little toe, no way. Besides which, knowing weeks in advance of the injury, and not having an orthotic insert made to take pressure off the toe, considering the resources available to him, is just ridiculous.

His problem was believing his own smack talk. He underestimated Wlad, and went in with a headhunting, one-shot approach, presuming that he would be quicker, and that Wlad would not have the reactions to deal with it.

It became evident within 90 seconds that this was not going to work, and yet Haye and his corner did not have the brains to change tactics.

Haye only threw 5 jabs in the whole fight, and all 5 landed on target. If he had spent more time boxing, and less time goading and trying to play the ref. for points, he would have made a fight of it, sore foot or not.

Klitchko on the other hand, impressed me greatly. Tight orthodox boxing, nice, if linear, footwork, and a good eye to read Haye's weakpoints from the first bell. I still think he has wasted his career protecting his belt by refusing to fight in the US, and by hand-picking lesser caliber oponents, and I still think he is a very beatable boxer, but he clearly can raise his game when the occassion calls for it.

If there is to be a rematch (and Wlad owes Haye no favours in this respect), then Haye needs to concentrate on the fight, not all the BS around it, and he needs to actually box- something he has proven more than capable of in the past, but inexplicably chose not to do when it mattered most.

He has the tools to beat Klitchko, he just didnt use them on the night, due to hubris and blinkered vision.
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