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#433178 - 07/09/11 10:43 PM Re: How effective are joint locks in civilian defence? [Re: Stormdragon]
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
It IS all situational as Martial Man alluded to. No one response is good for every situation. Probably a good idea to be prepared for everything - including the ability to apply joint locks and chokes (especially chokes).

NOTHING is guaranteed to stop an opponent like a choke (short of a weapon). Practice your chokes.

-John

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#433180 - 07/10/11 12:21 AM Re: How effective are joint locks in civilian defence? [Re: JKogas]
Zach_Zinn Offline
Veteran

Registered: 12/09/07
Posts: 1031
Loc: Olympia, WA
There are numerous examples caught on video of people using strikes and evasive footwork to deal with "street" stuff. I have yet to see one of someone successfully defending themselves by applying an RNC...if anyone has a video or example like that, i'd be interested in seeing it.

I'm not saying it can't happen, just that it seems alot less likely tactic in this environment.

Of course no one response is good for every situation, but certain things are definitely more preferable, and likely to work in a given environment than other things.

Honestly this seems like a no brainer to me...Prizewriter didn't ask "should you train these techniques"..I'm guessing we would all answer yes to that. He asked how useful they were likely to be in a civilian defense context.

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#433181 - 07/10/11 12:31 AM Re: How effective are joint locks in civilian defence? [Re: Stormdragon]
Kimo2007 Offline
Veteran

Registered: 03/31/07
Posts: 1057
Quote:
While you throw something to stun one guy, the others will be most likely jump in. You can't stun them all at once


That is not exactly true. Crowd psychology is a very strange thing. I would be willing to bet that if you dispatched one guy quickly, the others might freeze, at least for a beat. I have experience with this personally. While you are hitting one person, the others need to process the situation and that time, be it ever so small, can be used to exploit the situation.

I had an "altercation" where I was severely outnumbered. The confident leader gave me an opening when he raised his arm to point and I delivered 3 middle knuckle punches to his floating rib. He dropped and I turned and hit the guy on my left square with a full power reverse punch dropping him, he didn't even try and block or duck. 2 guys, 4 punches maybe a second or two of time...the group was stunned by the quickness and ferocity of the attack. They weren't thinking, they are 5 of us left, they were thinking about what just happened...I used the same beat of time to get out of there before they jumped on me.

If you don't want to believe my story, then maybe one of the mods can find the video of the kid (young man) in a bar surround by what appeared to be some gang members. He took out 3 of them before they knew what hit them and was halfway out the door before they even began to pursue, much less jump him with their advantage.

The same can happen in reverse. Even good fighters can get jumped and beaten down before they have a chance to react because they are not processed to defend or fight back quite yet. That beat of time is the longest 1 second you can imagine if you are engaged and the opponent is not.

I am not advocating you can fight multiple people at once effectively. If they are coming and committed, you are probably done for. (envision a jailhouse beat down) But if they are a bunch drunk frat boys looking for a fight, they probably are not as committed at first. And while they are likely to pile on, any more committed response or seeing one of their own go down fast will likely take their wind for a beat.

The hardest part about a street fight, is committing to fight. We always talk about avoidance and getting away, and those are the primary goals of course. But you also have to be ready to cross the line between impending danger and combat. And be able to do it in a fully committed way. You have to steal the advantage, especially in a outnumbered or weapon drawn situation. We used to call it big fish, little fish. Your attackers are assuming the big fish role, but you need to become a bigger fish. We also used to say "attack the weapon" meaning if someone pulls a knife on you, your best and likely only chance to win is to attack the attacker. They assume the bigger fish status because they have a weapon. Attacking basically screws with their psychology, changes the situation in an unsuspected way and give you a slight advantage.

If you wait to see if they are serious (and that is a judgement call) you are betting that they have no intention of harming you if you comply. I believe if someone pulls a weapon, you have to assume they will use it, and you need to exploit any advantage you can, and fast. The more you wait, the lower your chances for success.

OK stepping down of my soap box, but hoping that triggers some interesting responses. (in the spirit of not hijacking a thread maybe the mods want to move my post). But it's been quiet here as of late.

Back to OP...as John said, it's situational. And combat outside the gym/dojo should never happen, but we all know that it does and comes in all shapes and sizes. Like I think he was implying, chokes are probably the most useful because they are not governed by pain, or compliance. No matter what you have in your system the brain shuts off without Oxygen. Joint manipulation is very effective in many situations as well, but it's risky. Are you willing to injure someone if they don't cry uncle? Will they attack again if you release them? Choking is like the big brother of knocking someone out, they are incapacitated but likely will suffer no real damage assuming you don't suffocate them.




Edited by Kimo2007 (07/10/11 12:36 AM)
_________________________
Undefeated in all of Asia!

Top
#433184 - 07/10/11 01:39 AM Re: How effective are joint locks in civilian defence? [Re: Kimo2007]
Stormdragon Offline
Who Dares Wins
Professional Poster

Registered: 08/05/04
Posts: 3409
Loc: Salem, OR
Originally Posted By: Kimo2007
Quote:
While you throw something to stun one guy, the others will be most likely jump in. You can't stun them all at once


That is not exactly true. Crowd psychology is a very strange thing. I would be willing to bet that if you dispatched one guy quickly, the others might freeze, at least for a beat. I have experience with this personally. While you are hitting one person, the others need to process the situation and that time, be it ever so small, can be used to exploit the situation.

I had an "altercation" where I was severely outnumbered. The confident leader gave me an opening when he raised his arm to point and I delivered 3 middle knuckle punches to his floating rib. He dropped and I turned and hit the guy on my left square with a full power reverse punch dropping him, he didn't even try and block or duck. 2 guys, 4 punches maybe a second or two of time...the group was stunned by the quickness and ferocity of the attack. They weren't thinking, they are 5 of us left, they were thinking about what just happened...I used the same beat of time to get out of there before they jumped on me.

If you don't want to believe my story, then maybe one of the mods can find the video of the kid (young man) in a bar surround by what appeared to be some gang members. He took out 3 of them before they knew what hit them and was halfway out the door before they even began to pursue, much less jump him with their advantage.

The same can happen in reverse. Even good fighters can get jumped and beaten down before they have a chance to react because they are not processed to defend or fight back quite yet. That beat of time is the longest 1 second you can imagine if you are engaged and the opponent is not.

I am not advocating you can fight multiple people at once effectively. If they are coming and committed, you are probably done for. (envision a jailhouse beat down) But if they are a bunch drunk frat boys looking for a fight, they probably are not as committed at first. And while they are likely to pile on, any more committed response or seeing one of their own go down fast will likely take their wind for a beat.

The hardest part about a street fight, is committing to fight. We always talk about avoidance and getting away, and those are the primary goals of course. But you also have to be ready to cross the line between impending danger and combat. And be able to do it in a fully committed way. You have to steal the advantage, especially in a outnumbered or weapon drawn situation. We used to call it big fish, little fish. Your attackers are assuming the big fish role, but you need to become a bigger fish. We also used to say "attack the weapon" meaning if someone pulls a knife on you, your best and likely only chance to win is to attack the attacker. They assume the bigger fish status because they have a weapon. Attacking basically screws with their psychology, changes the situation in an unsuspected way and give you a slight advantage.

If you wait to see if they are serious (and that is a judgement call) you are betting that they have no intention of harming you if you comply. I believe if someone pulls a weapon, you have to assume they will use it, and you need to exploit any advantage you can, and fast. The more you wait, the lower your chances for success.

OK stepping down of my soap box, but hoping that triggers some interesting responses. (in the spirit of not hijacking a thread maybe the mods want to move my post). But it's been quiet here as of late.

Back to OP...as John said, it's situational. And combat outside the gym/dojo should never happen, but we all know that it does and comes in all shapes and sizes. Like I think he was implying, chokes are probably the most useful because they are not governed by pain, or compliance. No matter what you have in your system the brain shuts off without Oxygen. Joint manipulation is very effective in many situations as well, but it's risky. Are you willing to injure someone if they don't cry uncle? Will they attack again if you release them? Choking is like the big brother of knocking someone out, they are incapacitated but likely will suffer no real damage assuming you don't suffocate them.




I don't doubt your story, but it does happen plenty often where they all attack, I've seen it happen that way ocne in my life and several times on video. And if that happens, you're in serious trouble, best thing to do is find a a weapon and use it wildly till you are in a good place to run. I'm not actually saying choking is better then striking in a multiple attacker situation (though it could possibly work to use chokes), I'm just saying that neither gives you really GOOD odds if they do attack like that, it's like dealing with a knife, it's a bad situation no matter what you use. Chances are I wouldn't use any chokes if for some reason I was in such a situation, I'd throw a kick and maybe one or two punches and run if I absolutely HAD to fight with my bare hands only (and I will do anythign to avoid having to fight in a situation like that unarmed anyway), but if it was, say, 2 dudes I think a standing RNC could work well and be a useful barrier to the second guy till the first one is out (which again only takes six seconds once it's locked and if you have a good arm drag you can get there in a hurry). Of course I definitely agree with taking action decisively before they expect it and realize what's happening, whatever your course of action is, suprise, speed, and violence of action is what carries you through a fight before anything else.
_________________________
Member of DaJoGen MMA school under Dave Hagen and Team Chaos fight team under Denver Mangiyatan and Chris Toquero, ran out of Zanshin Martial Arts in Salem Oregon: http://www.zanshinarts.org/Home.aspx,

Top
#433200 - 07/10/11 10:25 PM Re: How effective are joint locks in civilian defence? [Re: Stormdragon]
47MartialMan Offline
Member

Registered: 11/17/04
Posts: 180
The first thing to do, is not be there in the FIRST place

Top
#433202 - 07/10/11 11:20 PM Re: How effective are joint locks in civilian defence? [Re: 47MartialMan]
Stormdragon Offline
Who Dares Wins
Professional Poster

Registered: 08/05/04
Posts: 3409
Loc: Salem, OR
If this was facebook I owuld like the hell out of that martialman.
_________________________
Member of DaJoGen MMA school under Dave Hagen and Team Chaos fight team under Denver Mangiyatan and Chris Toquero, ran out of Zanshin Martial Arts in Salem Oregon: http://www.zanshinarts.org/Home.aspx,

Top
#433203 - 07/11/11 12:17 AM Re: How effective are joint locks in civilian defence? [Re: 47MartialMan]
Kimo2007 Offline
Veteran

Registered: 03/31/07
Posts: 1057
Quote:
The first thing to do, is not be there in the FIRST place


"The best way to avoid punch, no be there"

Mr. Miyagi
_________________________
Undefeated in all of Asia!

Top
#433219 - 07/11/11 10:59 PM Re: How effective are joint locks in civilian defence? [Re: Kimo2007]
47MartialMan Offline
Member

Registered: 11/17/04
Posts: 180
Originally Posted By: Kimo2007
Quote:
The first thing to do, is not be there in the FIRST place


"The best way to avoid punch, no be there"

Mr. Miyagi


No. Not the "dodge" a punch.

You have to be in the place where such a situation has the largest percentage to unfold

For example, you would least likely get punched at a 11yr old birthday party

vs.

At a pub during the World Championship event of two opposing fans.

Simply, from my decades of observations and experiences, many fights could have been avoidable.

Hence, not be there

Top
#433227 - 07/12/11 12:59 AM Re: How effective are joint locks in civilian defence? [Re: 47MartialMan]
Kimo2007 Offline
Veteran

Registered: 03/31/07
Posts: 1057
Quote:
No. Not the "dodge" a punch.


Oh you question the wisdom of Miyagi??

He was not saying to dodge the punch, he was saying to not be there as in, not in a fight at all.
_________________________
Undefeated in all of Asia!

Top
#433247 - 07/12/11 07:32 PM Re: How effective are joint locks in civilian defence? [Re: Kimo2007]
47MartialMan Offline
Member

Registered: 11/17/04
Posts: 180
Originally Posted By: Kimo2007
Quote:
No. Not the "dodge" a punch.


Oh you question the wisdom of Miyagi??

He was not saying to dodge the punch, he was saying to not be there as in, not in a fight at all.


I was saying this long before KK

Top
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