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#433134 - 07/07/11 02:51 PM How effective are joint locks in civilian defence?
Prizewriter Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 10/23/05
Posts: 2572
This is a topic I had a conversation about while working through some Gracie Jiu Jitsu with a training partner. I've had various sorts of joint locks applied to me in Aikido, Judo, BJJ and even in a Wado Ryi Karate class.

I understand the application for someone like a police officer or someone working as security in a pub/bar using them to restrain or control someone.

Do joint locks translate well over in to civilian physical protection though? When compared with the following, how useful do you consider joint locks to be:

- Knocking an attacker down or knocking them out
- Hitting an attacker to stun or wind them so they have difficulty functioning
- (If on the ground) Choking an attacker
- (If on the ground) Pinning an attacker

I gave two variations on what a person can do on the ground (it goes without saying the goal should be to get up as soon as possible) because I know people will say you can use an arm lock to control someone on the ground and it may not be appropriate to choke them. For example, you need to control a drunken friend just as they are about to do something stupid. It may be more appropriate to pin on the ground until the cool down rather than choke them out!


Outside of combat sports and law enforcement/security, how useful to you consider joint locks to be?
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#433137 - 07/07/11 08:48 PM Re: How effective are joint locks in civilian defence? [Re: Prizewriter]
Zach_Zinn Offline
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Registered: 12/09/07
Posts: 1031
Loc: Olympia, WA
I'd argue they are not very reliable...just my own bias but I think if you are looking at what is reliable and what is not for physical defense, escape, evasion, and percussion should be the priority.

Sure you could try to set one up on the ground, surely though if you are training with self defense in mind, you do not want to spend any time at all on the ground if it's avoidable..thus the only place you would apply on on the ground is if it was just completely 'given' to you. Else, you'd want to grapple with the goal of getting up ASAP.

The same problem exists with pins and chokes also, any of these things are time dependent, and for the most part require the ground to work, which for civilian defense is relatively risky.

Joint destruction might be a different ballgame, but again they are going to be opportunity things, not the most likely things to use..and in the case of these you would certainly not use them against your drunk uncle.


Maybe it's useful here to think about social vs. asocial violence, as i'm guessing these techniques operate wildly differently in those two categories.

http://www.conflictcommunications.com/Socialviolence.htm


Edited by Zach_Zinn (07/07/11 08:55 PM)

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#433149 - 07/08/11 07:53 PM Re: How effective are joint locks in civilian defence? [Re: Zach_Zinn]
Shusha Offline
Member

Registered: 04/30/11
Posts: 37
The thing with joint locks, assuming success (!), with respect to self-defense, comes down to two questions:

How long can I hold him?

What's going to happen if he gets out?

The reason these are effective for law enforcement and bouncers is that back-up is immediately available and the answers are, "long enough" and "he's going to be in a world of trouble".

A woman isolated in a guy's apartment is going to have very different answers. A guy in conflict with a a nasty dude and 3 of his buddies is going to have very different answers. Its situational.

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#433150 - 07/08/11 09:37 PM Re: How effective are joint locks in civilian defence? [Re: Zach_Zinn]
Stormdragon Offline
Who Dares Wins
Professional Poster

Registered: 08/05/04
Posts: 3409
Loc: Salem, OR
Originally Posted By: Zach_Zinn
I'd argue they are not very reliable...just my own bias but I think if you are looking at what is reliable and what is not for physical defense, escape, evasion, and percussion should be the priority.

Sure you could try to set one up on the ground, surely though if you are training with self defense in mind, you do not want to spend any time at all on the ground if it's avoidable..thus the only place you would apply on on the ground is if it was just completely 'given' to you. Else, you'd want to grapple with the goal of getting up ASAP.

The same problem exists with pins and chokes also, any of these things are time dependent, and for the most part require the ground to work, which for civilian defense is relatively risky.

Joint destruction might be a different ballgame, but again they are going to be opportunity things, not the most likely things to use..and in the case of these you would certainly not use them against your drunk uncle.


Maybe it's useful here to think about social vs. asocial violence, as i'm guessing these techniques operate wildly differently in those two categories.

http://www.conflictcommunications.com/Socialviolence.htm


If you get behind someone and lock on a rear naked choke while stickign a knee in their legs and pulling them up on you the choke works great, a properly applied RNC will put someone out in 6 seconds. The guillotine properly applied works well too from standing. And joint locks are great if you hit first.
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#433152 - 07/08/11 11:38 PM Re: How effective are joint locks in civilian defence? [Re: Stormdragon]
Zach_Zinn Offline
Veteran

Registered: 12/09/07
Posts: 1031
Loc: Olympia, WA
Yeah, they work great against one guy when you don't have to worry about anything else, and know the variables of your environment.

And 6 seconds? Yeah...I know they can happen that quickly, but setting them up that quickly usually is not the case. Time dependent techniques. Stuff that works great against a single, known opponent is not necessary the best stuff in other places!

In a one on one fight these techniques are not only good, as evidence by their success in combat sport they are fantastic..however outside of these, their relevance changes.

Whether or not something "works" has to do with what you actually want it to work for, IMO.


Edited by Zach_Zinn (07/08/11 11:40 PM)

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#433166 - 07/09/11 02:00 PM Re: How effective are joint locks in civilian defence? [Re: Zach_Zinn]
Kimo2007 Offline
Veteran

Registered: 03/31/07
Posts: 1057
I think this boils down to the classic "what if" discussion. The nature of conflict in the civilian world is that it's completely unpredictable.

When you consider the high percentage of domestic violence I could see plenty of scenarios where striking would not be a first option.
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#433170 - 07/09/11 07:26 PM Re: How effective are joint locks in civilian defence? [Re: Zach_Zinn]
Stormdragon Offline
Who Dares Wins
Professional Poster

Registered: 08/05/04
Posts: 3409
Loc: Salem, OR
Originally Posted By: Zach_Zinn
Yeah, they work great against one guy when you don't have to worry about anything else, and know the variables of your environment.

And 6 seconds? Yeah...I know they can happen that quickly, but setting them up that quickly usually is not the case. Time dependent techniques. Stuff that works great against a single, known opponent is not necessary the best stuff in other places!

In a one on one fight these techniques are not only good, as evidence by their success in combat sport they are fantastic..however outside of these, their relevance changes.

Whether or not something "works" has to do with what you actually want it to work for, IMO.


Be realistic, NOTHING works WELL against multiple attackers. It'll be a bad day for you no matter what. Best thing to do is run or grab a weapon but you're screwed anyway if you try to fight it out. That said yes it depends on the situation, there's a lot of situatiosn where beating the holy hell out of people will just bring you more trouble. Subduing attackers has a place depending on the situation.
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Member of DaJoGen MMA school under Dave Hagen and Team Chaos fight team under Denver Mangiyatan and Chris Toquero, ran out of Zanshin Martial Arts in Salem Oregon: http://www.zanshinarts.org/Home.aspx,

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#433173 - 07/09/11 08:18 PM Re: How effective are joint locks in civilian defence? [Re: Stormdragon]
47MartialMan Offline
Member

Registered: 11/17/04
Posts: 180
It is all situational

I would think LEOs should train better to do this

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#433175 - 07/09/11 09:22 PM Re: How effective are joint locks in civilian defence? [Re: 47MartialMan]
Zach_Zinn Offline
Veteran

Registered: 12/09/07
Posts: 1031
Loc: Olympia, WA
I am being realistic..realistically your chances in any encounter that has already gotten physical are much better if you can "stun and run" than trying to tie up with someone and apply a lock or a choke.\

I'm not saying grappling isn't good or anything, i'm saying that in context skills like joint locks and chokes play a smaller part because the whole point is to get away and survive.

That said, knowing how to grapple can help you a ton in knowing how to escape.

Quote:
Subduing attackers has a place depending on the situation.


Sure it does, I don't think that was what he was asking about though, he was asking specifically about civilian defense...usually the goal there is get away, not subdue, capture, or submit someone.


Edited by Zach_Zinn (07/09/11 09:29 PM)

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#433176 - 07/09/11 09:53 PM Re: How effective are joint locks in civilian defence? [Re: Zach_Zinn]
Stormdragon Offline
Who Dares Wins
Professional Poster

Registered: 08/05/04
Posts: 3409
Loc: Salem, OR
While you throw something to stun one guy, the others will be most likely jump in. You can't stun them all at once. My first thought is to get hold of a weapon, and/or run.
_________________________
Member of DaJoGen MMA school under Dave Hagen and Team Chaos fight team under Denver Mangiyatan and Chris Toquero, ran out of Zanshin Martial Arts in Salem Oregon: http://www.zanshinarts.org/Home.aspx,

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