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#136773 - 04/23/05 10:58 PM Throwing
Anonymous
Unregistered


Throwing is left out a lot when it comes to street applications and using what works best. Throws can be great fight enders. Besides the fact that just about any throw can be changed a little so the person lands on their head, people just seem to quit after they're thrown down. Something in them just says not to keep going like their ego has been killed. Anyone else work their throwing techniques?

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#432037 - 04/11/11 12:40 PM Re: Throwing [Re: Anonymous]
jdwannabe_5 Offline
Stranger

Registered: 04/08/11
Posts: 4
Throws can be good I guess. Judo throws and stuff.

Thing is, regardless of ego damage you can take advantage, ground and pound or whatever, stamp on the guy's nose.

So yeah, maybe some throws are useful. I've not done Judo formally but I've hip tossed slower aggressors. It doesn't happen often but it's useful. I think grappling take downs are more useful maybe (Can't remember the name of one I did in JKD class derived from Philipino styles, but they end up on the floor and you've got their arm trapped) and then you can REALLY end a fight if you're in that position.

Worst part I guess is that anyone who has speed, for instance how anyone jabs, you can't score the clasps, grips, throws etc that you'll need to pull off these moves.

Drunk people attacking you? Throw away.

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#432042 - 04/12/11 03:48 AM Re: Throwing [Re: jdwannabe_5]
Prizewriter Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 10/23/05
Posts: 2572
_________________________
"Let your food be your medicine, and your medicine be your food" Hippocrates.

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#432043 - 04/12/11 03:59 AM Re: Throwing [Re: Prizewriter]
Prizewriter Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 10/23/05
Posts: 2572
Sorry I love using that ha ha! Welcome to the forums. Throwing can be a useful skill, especially if an attacker has no sense of balance. Particularly foot sweeps, which fall under throws in judo, can be very useful. Here is a great clip of Judo player Dave Camarillo doing some throws in a grappling class. Though Dave has a black belt in BJJ too, he has been doing Judo since he was 4 and his foundation is Judo. Most (though not all) of these moves could be useful in a physical confrontation IMO:

_________________________
"Let your food be your medicine, and your medicine be your food" Hippocrates.

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#432439 - 05/21/11 07:49 AM Re: Throwing [Re: Prizewriter]
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10813
Loc: North Carolina
Throws = fun = good. ;-) I like Zombies too.

Throwing ZOMBIES = more fun!

I think JUDO has a lot of function for self-defense. A good judo guy would be hell to deal with in a street fight, especially if he's practiced closing distance against someone throwing strikes!

PS: I would wager that you'd almost have to pull up old threads here anymore. There's nothing new under the sun.

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#432933 - 06/23/11 03:15 AM Re: Throwing [Re: JKogas]
Stormdragon Offline
Who Dares Wins
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Registered: 08/05/04
Posts: 3409
Loc: Salem, OR
Someone said thorws don't work well against a guy who jabs a lot. Not true if you use good punching combos to set up a clinch and then throw, works fine. Trips are really useful on the street and greco or judo throws. Leg attacks can work ok but I'm not a fan of going close to the ground on the street and you might end up breaking your knee.
_________________________
Member of DaJoGen MMA school under Dave Hagen and Team Chaos fight team under Denver Mangiyatan and Chris Toquero, ran out of Zanshin Martial Arts in Salem Oregon: http://www.zanshinarts.org/Home.aspx,

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#432952 - 06/25/11 12:41 AM Re: Throwing [Re: Stormdragon]
Mark Jordan Offline
Member

Registered: 06/09/10
Posts: 138
Loc: Burbank, California
Many people consider Judo as a sport but originally Judo was and is a combat martial art. But with its heavy emphasis on physical conditioning and competition, it soon began to lose connection with its combat origins, and started to focus only on the sporting aspect.

I have personally used judo/jujutsu in a street fight to great effect and it will help you in a self defense situation. But the art of judo was not designed for street fights, it was designed to introduce jujutsu. You will not learn to block or evade punches in judo and it works best if you can get close to your opponent.

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#432955 - 06/25/11 05:45 AM Re: Throwing [Re: Mark Jordan]
Prizewriter Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 10/23/05
Posts: 2572
Have to disagree Mark. In Judo we were always taught to protect our neck and collar against grips. In randori you would often see people with their arms high and close to their head, like a boxers guard. People trying to get grips would throw their arms in fast, as though they were doing straight punches. It's common to see people "blocking" arms in Judo as this means their opponent can't grip. Additionally the "alive" manner of Judo training means a person is getting a good understanding of distance and timing and learn how to stay "arms length" away from someone to stop them gripping.

Additionally, a Judo player learns how to grip to tie up a persons arm. The same ideas can be used to stop someone punching (have played about with this in Judo after class).

Finally you seem to be completely disregarding the Kodokan Goshin Jutsu kata. I'm not a huge fan of this Judo Kata, but it makes an attempt to show how a Judo player can deal with punches, kicks and other attacks:

_________________________
"Let your food be your medicine, and your medicine be your food" Hippocrates.

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#432959 - 06/25/11 04:04 PM Re: Throwing [Re: Prizewriter]
Zach_Zinn Offline
Veteran

Registered: 12/09/07
Posts: 1031
Loc: Olympia, WA
Judo randori definitely doesn't adress striking, one of the first times I did it I inadvertently ridge handed someone in the face, he made me pay for it! I didn't even try though, his grip and kazushi literally just put my hand there, and being a total noob my body went back to Karate, which is what it knows. The format simply doesn't address strikes..not sure how that could be in dispute.

Judo is a fantastic art and sport, but claiming it addresses striking because some of the grips are high is far fetched to say the least. If you added strikes to Judo, let's say elbows, knees, headbutts to start with it completely changes the way you would do things, the whole setup of randori (find grips, use combo or counter throws) would not function the same if strikes were there.

Of course you could take Judo to these places if you wanted, but the vast majority of places don't, because their focus is on winning competitions, not broader combatives stuff.

Not saying it "wouldn't work on the street" as I think plenty og Judo would, but it is what it is and definitely that is a limitation of most Judo training I have seen...almost 100% focus on winning sport, and it rarely seems to leave that realm.

Quote:
You will not learn to block or evade punches in judo and it works best if you can get close to your opponent.


Are you actually disagreeing with that Prize? As far as I am concerned this is a 100% true statement and can be verified simply by going to a Judo class..the vast majority of them only address what happens in randori with another Judoka, which does not include strikes in any way.

On top of this, alot of the kazushi movements and grip use could actually create an "orbit" (to use a kenpo term) that would magnify the punch you eat. Not trying to be down on Judo at all...just saying everything has it's limitations and Judo's big limitation is that almost exclusively everything you learn is designed to win against another Judoka. Unless you actually play the skills with some concept of striking or broader combatives involved they wouldn't really transfer automatically IMO.

Thought i'd add:

As far as I know Kano himself actually felt that the lack of strikes in Randori was problematic. Where did he write it? I don't remember but i'm fairly certain he mentioned it somewhere or other.

I'm no Judo expert by any means, but I will say as someone with a decent amount of striking experience that the first thing I had to do was unlearn those tendencies..Judo playing creates alot of openings to hit people.


Edited by Zach_Zinn (06/25/11 04:30 PM)

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#432961 - 06/25/11 08:46 PM Re: Throwing [Re: Zach_Zinn]
Prizewriter Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 10/23/05
Posts: 2572
Originally Posted By: Zach_Zinn


Not saying it "wouldn't work on the street" as I think plenty og Judo would, but it is what it is and definitely that is a limitation of most Judo training I have seen...almost 100% focus on winning sport, and it rarely seems to leave that realm.

Quote:
You will not learn to block or evade punches in judo and it works best if you can get close to your opponent.


Are you actually disagreeing with that Prize? As far as I am concerned this is a 100% true statement and can be verified simply by going to a Judo class..the vast majority of them only address what happens in randori with another Judoka, which does not include strikes in any way.



To a certain extent yes. I'm not saying Judo is a great art for blocking strikes. To say that you will learn NOTHING in Judo that will help you avoid being struck is not entirely correct IMO though. The footwork used in Judo is useful in breaking grips and keeping you out of arms reach. Doesn't matter if a person is going to grab you or punch you, if you are out of arms reach neither of those things are going to happen. Additionly as I mentioned, in Judo it is possible to immobilize a persons arms or restrict their movement somewhat, which should reduce the risk of being punched.

For what it is worth I trained in boxing on and off for 8 years. Whereas you Zach see gaps in Judo that mean a Judoka is vunerable to getting hit (and I will admit there are gaps) I see similarities in the way boxers and judoka use footwork to move out of arms reach. I also noticed how difficult it can be to punch if a Judo player gets close and is able to gain certain grips over you and unbalance you.

Having studied both, I think a Judo offers more ways to deal with being struck with punches (or other arm strikes) than the other way round. I'm not saying doing Judo will be as good as boxing for avoiding punches. What I'm saying is there are areas in Judo that would help a person to avoid being struck. Judo players are still vunerable to strikes, but they can avoid strikes or reduce their severity by using skills that are already built in to their training.

As an example of the footwork/body movement in Judo that keeps a person out of arms reach, watch this clip from the excellent Jimmy Pedro/Rhadi Ferguson DVD about grip fighitng. Note how Rhadi moves out of arms reach at around 0:45 to stop Jimmy getting a grip. This same movement could be used to avoid a punch IMO:

_________________________
"Let your food be your medicine, and your medicine be your food" Hippocrates.

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