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#432770 - 06/12/11 05:57 PM Re: Tai Chi Swords [Re: 47MartialMan]
trevek Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/15/05
Posts: 3337
Loc: Poland
But does this mean because one does taiji one can only use the competition swords... can't one train with the heavier swords for fencing purposes?
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#432815 - 06/15/11 11:12 PM Re: Tai Chi Swords [Re: trevek]
47MartialMan Offline
Member

Registered: 11/17/04
Posts: 180
Originally Posted By: trevek
But does this mean because one does taiji one can only use the competition swords... can't one train with the heavier swords for fencing purposes?


Tai Ji doesn't have fencing

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#432824 - 06/16/11 06:28 AM Re: Tai Chi Swords [Re: 47MartialMan]
trevek Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/15/05
Posts: 3337
Loc: Poland
Originally Posted By: 47MartialMan
Originally Posted By: trevek
But does this mean because one does taiji one can only use the competition swords... can't one train with the heavier swords for fencing purposes?


Tai Ji doesn't have fencing


You mean that nobody trained in sword technique in Tai Ji can actually fight with a sword? NOBODY actually trains to utilise a sword? Weird!
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#432882 - 06/20/11 01:13 AM Re: Tai Chi Swords [Re: trevek]
47MartialMan Offline
Member

Registered: 11/17/04
Posts: 180
Originally Posted By: trevek
Originally Posted By: 47MartialMan
Originally Posted By: trevek
But does this mean because one does taiji one can only use the competition swords... can't one train with the heavier swords for fencing purposes?


Tai Ji doesn't have fencing


You mean that nobody trained in sword technique in Tai Ji can actually fight with a sword? NOBODY actually trains to utilise a sword? Weird!


Fencing is a whole different discipline

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#432892 - 06/20/11 12:50 PM Re: Tai Chi Swords [Re: 47MartialMan]
trevek Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/15/05
Posts: 3337
Loc: Poland
I was, of course, referring to "fencing" in it's original meaning, of swordsmanship for comabt and deFENCE.

According to the mighty wiki:

Taijijian (simplified Chinese: &#22826;&#26497;&#21073;; traditional Chinese: &#22826;&#26997;&#21133;; pinyin: tijjin; literally "Taiji Sword") is a straight two-edged sword used in the training of the Chinese martial art Taijiquan. The straight sword, sometimes with a tassel and sometimes not, is used for upper body conditioning and martial training in traditional Taijiquan schools. The different family schools have various warmups, forms and fencing drills for training with the jian.
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#432906 - 06/21/11 09:57 PM Re: Tai Chi Swords [Re: trevek]
47MartialMan Offline
Member

Registered: 11/17/04
Posts: 180
Originally Posted By: trevek
I was, of course, referring to "fencing" in it's original meaning, of swordsmanship for comabt and deFENCE.

According to the mighty wiki:

Taijijian (simplified Chinese: &#22826;&#26497;&#21073;; traditional Chinese: &#22826;&#26997;&#21133;; pinyin: tijjin; literally "Taiji Sword") is a straight two-edged sword used in the training of the Chinese martial art Taijiquan. The straight sword, sometimes with a tassel and sometimes not, is used for upper body conditioning and martial training in traditional Taijiquan schools. The different family schools have various warmups, forms and fencing drills for training with the jian.


Wiki is not all accurate

There is a difference of Tai Ji and Tai Ji Quan

And Jian is a sword long before TaiJi using it

And Chinese "fencing", is not like European "fencing"

You cant label both as fencing when one is truly fencing and the other is JianShu

Jian Shu, Chinese "Sword Method", is not at all associated with the flowery and degraded "Tai Ji Sword displays

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#432936 - 06/23/11 09:22 AM Re: Tai Chi Swords [Re: 47MartialMan]
trevek Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/15/05
Posts: 3337
Loc: Poland
Originally Posted By: 47MartialMan

Wiki is not all accurate

There is a difference of Tai Ji and Tai Ji Quan

And Jian is a sword long before TaiJi using it

And Chinese "fencing", is not like European "fencing"

You cant label both as fencing when one is truly fencing and the other is JianShu

Jian Shu, Chinese "Sword Method", is not at all associated with the flowery and degraded "Tai Ji Sword displays


You are the one who initially cited/quoted wiki!

However, I now understand that you are basing your argument on the difference between Tai Ji and Tai Ji Quan (assuming the initial use in the OP and the advert recognised the difference as well).

OK, I understand your point as this: TJ is a aesthetic and degraded style based on original TJQ, utilising visual and auditory effects over practical useage. As such the swrods cannot be considered TJ swords because they are of a different quality/standard/type.

TJQ is a more practical style, utilising sword systems of a more practical nature, as well as utilising swords which were originally used in other styles, therefore are not wholly TJQ swords. As such, it is a misnomer to refer to them as TJ or TJQ swords.

Am I correct?

As for the "fencing" point, of course there are stylistic differences between Western and Chinese sword styles. However, not being familiar with the Chinese term(s) for opponent based combat swordplay, I chose to use a generic Western term.

My use of the term "fencing" is similar to the use of western terminology when describing Chinese swords as "sabres" etc (which would qualify it as "fencing"), or using the term "boxing", when referring to Chinese Boxing. I see no problem using the term "fencing" to mean swordplay against an opponent, especially when it is clear from the context that I do not refer to the different styles of western fencing.


So, does Jian-shu use combat/opponent-based sword-sparring? Also, is Jian-shu the same across different aspects of Wu Shu disciplines?


Edited by trevek (06/23/11 09:26 AM)
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See how well I block your punches with my jaw!!

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#432954 - 06/25/11 04:18 AM Re: Tai Chi Swords [Re: trevek]
trevek Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/15/05
Posts: 3337
Loc: Poland
@47MartialMan

I do appreciate the information you are giving, btw (seriously).
_________________________
See how well I block your punches with my jaw!!

Supporting everyone saying "nuts to cancer"

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#432973 - 06/27/11 05:10 PM Re: Tai Chi Swords [Re: trevek]
47MartialMan Offline
Member

Registered: 11/17/04
Posts: 180
Originally Posted By: trevek
i!

However, I now understand that you are basing your argument on the difference between Tai Ji and Tai Ji Quan (assuming the initial use in the OP and the advert recognised the difference as well).

OK, I understand your point as this: TJ is a aesthetic and degraded style based on original TJQ, utilising visual and auditory effects over practical useage. As such the swrods cannot be considered TJ swords because they are of a different quality/standard/type.

TJQ is a more practical style, utilising sword systems of a more practical nature, as well as utilising swords which were originally used in other styles, therefore are not wholly TJQ swords. As such, it is a misnomer to refer to them as TJ or TJQ swords.

Am I correct?

As for the "fencing" point, of course there are stylistic differences between Western and Chinese sword styles. However, not being familiar with the Chinese term(s) for opponent based combat swordplay, I chose to use a generic Western term.

My use of the term "fencing" is similar to the use of western terminology when describing Chinese swords as "sabres" etc (which would qualify it as "fencing"), or using the term "boxing", when referring to Chinese Boxing. I see no problem using the term "fencing" to mean swordplay against an opponent, especially when it is clear from the context that I do not refer to the different styles of western fencing.


So, does Jian-shu use combat/opponent-based sword-sparring? Also, is Jian-shu the same across different aspects of Wu Shu disciplines?


First and/or foremost, i have not considered anything I post as a "argument"

I view everything as a discussion

And, I did like the above post of yours.

The problem with martial arts, especially those of long history, is the misuse of their terms and methods

People tend to be complacent into reading or being told "one particular" thing and then someone finds out more info, esp that a little different, said "complacent people" are quick to dismiss

I became a martial art scholar some years after being a martial artist.

I rather research many different things

I like to find out the "Why?"

When I find out the answer to one "Why?", I ask "why?" to that answer

And in perpetual motion I learn and discover more things

One cannot be complacent or biased when researching the "Why?"

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#432990 - 06/28/11 06:24 PM Re: Tai Chi Swords [Re: 47MartialMan]
trevek Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/15/05
Posts: 3337
Loc: Poland
A superb reply.

I must apologise for the use of "argument", meaning it more as "stance" or "approach".

Discussions are always to be encouraged, and I must thank you for engaging me in this one. Please be assured, I am not as complacent as i may appear.

:-)
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