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#432780 - 06/13/11 07:36 AM Wing Chun vs. untrained
Chung Hu Offline
Newbie

Registered: 10/29/10
Posts: 9
Loc: Jacksonville, Fl
We learn some basics of Wing chun in JKD and it has been my focus lately to improve those skills specifically. With all the videos or books I have seen combind with the training in class I am starting to wonder "Is WC designed to work only against a trained fighter?" When we train it all the attacks are straight lines keeping in the center box and center line principles.

For all practitioners that have studied it as their main style or that have trainied in it for years what is your opinion on WC vs. the untrained fighter? What techniques should I focus on to respond to that person? Obviously their is no right or wrong answer I am looking for extra information to add to my training.

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#432782 - 06/13/11 10:05 AM Re: Wing Chun vs. untrained [Re: Chung Hu]
MattJ Offline
Free Rhinoplasty!
Prolific

Registered: 11/25/04
Posts: 15634
Loc: York PA. USA
IMHO, any art can work effectively against trained or untrained opponents. The key is to make the physical training as realistic as you can; less rules and more contact will aid in making the style work under pressure.
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#432791 - 06/13/11 06:07 PM Re: Wing Chun vs. untrained [Re: MattJ]
trevek Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/15/05
Posts: 3331
Loc: Poland
I feel any art needs to train against the untrained fighter. The problem with a lot of styles is that we usually train for what "we" would do. Untrained fighters can lack predictability and finesse.
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#432792 - 06/13/11 07:22 PM Re: Wing Chun vs. untrained [Re: trevek]
Zach_Zinn Offline
Veteran

Registered: 12/09/07
Posts: 1031
Loc: Olympia, WA
The same movements will often work against untrained attacks, you just need to take it there. Next time you work bong sau or whatever, just practice it against things that are habitual acts of violence, rounded punches, grab + rounded punches etc.

Most stuff that's good works against a variety of physical movement, that's what makes it good.

That said, what little wing chun i've been exposed to does seem to deal alot with dueling another WC guy...the movements aren't really that different from alot of other systems though, if you don't get that kind of experimentation and training in class then see if you can grab a friend and take the material there outside of class.


If you want some starter stuff to play with, if I remember two of the most common acts of violence are: Right rounded/haymaker punches, and grab + right punches.

One other piece of advice, whoever is throwing the punches needs to not intentionally be terrible, there are plenty of untrained fighters who can fight well, so "untrained" attack doesn't mean "moron who throws one terrible punch and stops".


Edited by Zach_Zinn (06/13/11 07:22 PM)

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#432830 - 06/16/11 09:49 PM Re: Wing Chun vs. untrained [Re: Zach_Zinn]
Matakiant Offline
Member

Registered: 02/08/11
Posts: 114
Well quite honestly I've had only very little exposure and I have to doubt the overall skill level of our local Wing Chun practitioners.

I wasn't really impressed and as Zach_Zinn said a lot of it seems like dueling..

However I think that any physical training coupled with adequete contact and an open mind will lead to results. Of course that's the very basic answer the method taught is very important. It IS the practitioner who makes the method work but in all honesty not all methods deemed martial arts are effective in all physical confrontations.

Zach_Zinns advice is good yes practice contact as realistically as possible and with as much variation as possible. Contact training should always be challenging.

I do hope someone experienced in Wing Chun replies as it would be interesting to read for myself as well.

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#433118 - 07/06/11 04:57 PM Re: Wing Chun vs. untrained [Re: Matakiant]
Chin_Da01 Offline
Newbie

Registered: 05/23/09
Posts: 23
Loc: Mid west
Wing Chun vs and Untrained opponent? (I don't do Wing Chun I practice a Long Fist called Pigua Quan... but I have a good friend that has studied the art for twenty years, I've sparred with him too many times to count)

IMO... Wing Chun is a very good art against an untrained opponent (some arts IMO are not) Most untrained opponents stand in the pocket swing away while giving their center line up. IMO this sounds like "Candy Land" to a practitioner of Wing Chun.

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#433222 - 07/11/11 11:10 PM Re: Wing Chun vs. untrained [Re: Chin_Da01]
47MartialMan Offline
Member

Registered: 11/17/04
Posts: 180
This is a very dumbfounded discussion;

Wing Chun vs. untrained ,,,,,

Look, anyone training in a art will be better than anyone "untrained".

Simply two opposite words;

Trained of Untrained


DOH

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#433284 - 07/15/11 04:18 PM Re: Wing Chun vs. untrained [Re: 47MartialMan]
Zach_Zinn Offline
Veteran

Registered: 12/09/07
Posts: 1031
Loc: Olympia, WA
He's asking about Wing Chun vs. something other than Wing Chun..i.e. how an "average" person might fight, rather than just responding to other Wing Chun attacks.

It's not a "dumbfounded" discussion, whatever that means.

Quote:

Look, anyone training in a art will be better than anyone "untrained".


There are guys out there that grew up rough enough that a few years in the dojo or gym probably won't put you on the same level of familiarity or comfort with violence..training helps but it's not a guarantee of anything. I've seen your above statement proved wrong.


Edited by Zach_Zinn (07/15/11 04:27 PM)

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#433298 - 07/16/11 05:51 PM Re: Wing Chun vs. untrained [Re: Zach_Zinn]
gojuman59 Offline
Member

Registered: 04/08/11
Posts: 223
Loc: Missouri
I agree Mr. Z. I've seen people who have trained for years who weren't that accomplished as martial artists. That being said I've also people who with no training just seem to have an intensity about them that says, "you want some of This?"
This goes back to the A + B = C of TMA. The untrained guy just might plow you through the wall. With what technique one might ask? The freight train through the chest amd watch them get slammed to the pavement technique.The untrained aren't burdened by the "you punched ..now I counter of TMA. My two cents worth. All that said I still like TMA alot. That's just me.

keep training, Mark

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#433374 - 07/20/11 05:31 PM Re: Wing Chun vs. untrained [Re: gojuman59]
Myranda Offline
Newbie

Registered: 07/20/11
Posts: 8
Happened on this site by chance while researching a "boxer's fracture" and spotted this thread and thought "ooh, I know this!! I'll register and stuff"

So.

Wing Chun(*) should work against trained fighters(+) just as much as it should against untrained fighters.

*Wing Chun is not nearly as unified as people make out Ip Man taught different students different stuff - whether for body size or fitness or whatever reason, so even his immediate students have occasionally VERY different views. Not only that, but while Ip Man is widely regarded as a very important figure in Wing Chun he was not the only Sifu around so there are still more styles knocking around. Different styles may train different ways.

+Trained fighter can be misleading... Most WC school's training programs would stuggle when faced with grapplers, or even other WC styles.

Those points clarified... Wing Chun has just as many methods of dealing with hooks, haymakers and uppercuts as it does against jabs, crosses and the sort of straight punch you find in many eastern martial arts.
-Big haymaker? Try a Dip Sau stepping into your opponents structure with a Fut Sau to the throat
-Hooks? That's where you Tan Sau comes in, and again chop them in the throat
-Belly shots or uppercuts? Gan Sau and Jut Sau are all good...
Chi Sau should be about looking for openings to strike - any strike, whether a WC strike or not, let you and your training partner learn more by mixing stuff up. Get lighter on your feet step round/past/through stuff, use soft style wing chun and hard style wing chun, through hooks, dodge...

Many schools of Wing Chun are very very very hung up on lineage an tradition - Ip Man wasn't, Ip Chun isn't and these two are considered the more important men within the art (certainly in the last few decades)... If you're learning as part of a JKD syllabus then you should be able to talk people into loosening up so you can get more out of things... even the forward Gung Lik elbow energy can be applied incredibly lightly - my Sifu regularly makes trips to Hong Kong where he teaches seminars and using this little trick has baffled many tradionalists...

I've only been doing Wing Chun for 4 years now (5 times a week mostly, but the last year only twice a week frown ), but in that time I've encountered many different takes on what is Wing Chun... certainly some of it I don't like - not because it doesn't work, but because it doesn't fight my fighting style. Some of it has very solid, but very slow footwork, some has very light footwork that sticks to the same structures so stays very stable.

The attacks following straight lines should ideally apply to you the defender, and the attacker should be free to throw in anything at all - even take down attempts, you should then use your Wing Chun and defend the centreline to defend and strike them.

Bah, I'd meant to speak more elloquently than this, but I'm really tired so I'll stop here and hope that some of it makes at least some sense... might re-write/edit in the morning.
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I do Wing Chun, BJJ, Muay Thai, and a little Submission Wrestling.

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