Okay, this is making sense to me. I think it helps explain why the male writing critique members found the scene unbelievable and/or the female character stupid/crazy. I think they were seeing the character's motivations/actions through a lens of bravado, while I intended the character's motivations to be goal oriented, no ego motivation whatsoever. A little tweaking of the language will go a long way toward removing that divide.

So tell me if I'm wearing out my welcome. I will take advantage of you all until I've got a quiver full of ideas or you tell me to go away. (I am feeling a tich guilty though as I will never be able to participate here with any sort of expertise on fighting arts. I do, however, freely contribute to newbies in my area of expertise, so perhaps a bit of passing it along.)

I'm going to relate another incident because giving specific examples seems to spark some great ideas. And it also helps me clarify my thoughts. So this one is not fictionalized in any scenes in my work in progress, but it shares some stand-off elements with a scene I'll be working on soon.

This, for me, was the scariest of the situations I've intervened in. Well, I don't even think I "intervened" in this case. I'd be interested in discussion about what dynamics were at play here and options I did not consider.

I was in college, had a live-in position with an old lady, Ida, who owned a big farm in the country. She had divided a section of the farmhouse into an apartment. One afternoon I was soaking her feet in a tub like I did every day after classes while she sat in her chair -- one of those motorized chairs that lifts the occupant into a standing position.

We started hearing all this thumping and shouting coming from the apartment to the side, rented by a middle-age couple. We looked at each other, both pretty aware of what was going on. We'd seen the signs. I'd even talked to the woman once about it and...well...you can guess how that went. So I just kept massaging Ida's feet. The thumping stopped and next thing I knew, the woman is at the front screen door, yelling for me to let her in.

I do. I see the man banging out of his door at the same time. I slam the regular door and lock it. He's out there banging and shouting. I call the police. The woman is crying and basically hysterical. I hear him rip the screen door off. I'm not worried because there's a solid, locked door yet. Also the police are on their way, although the farm was quite a distance out in the country. If figured ten minutes at the most. Also, later I realized, I had completely forgot to lock the back door, but he apparently didn't think of that either.

Meanwhile, Ida has started the long process of getting the chair to lift her to a standing position. So I'm just getting this woman to sit down in the kitchen and telling Ida to stay in her chair, when he breaks the door open. I don't know how. The door stayed on its hinges but somehow the lock broke. (I have wondered to this day how that happened and have distrusted locks.)

Anyway, he comes rushing in, casting about for his wife/girlfriend. She's behind me in the kitchen. Ida, still waiting for her chair to lift her, is in the living room directly in front of the door. He comes after his woman. I kinda stick my arms out wider and move with him so he can't get past me. He backs off a couple steps. She's screaming now. Ida has managed to get herself standing, but she's standing in this tub of soapy water.

I'm terrified that she'll fall and hurt herself trying to step out of the tub. I'm terrified she'll get her feet out of the tub and go after this guy. She was one tough, mean broad. I'm terrified he'll accidentally knock her over because he's storming around.

And, frankly, I was terrified of him. He was big and had that sort of gone-to-seed bulk about him. He kept kind of faux charging at me, then pacing around, punching and kicking random things in the house. He punched the wall to the side of my head once. I could see that he hurt his hand and we had to patch the hole later.

All I could think was to tell the woman to go in the back hall. I thought that if he couldn't see her, maybe he'd calm down. She did, but we could all still hear her screaming away back there. And I don't know that I didn't make it worse.

But I just kept blocking the way and he kept staying a bit away, but charging in and hitting random things beside me. I just couldn't see any way out of it. I don't know if I was right or not, but I felt like rather than calming down, he was working himself up. The woman was back there screaming and obviously very scared.

I also had this sense that when he did get himself worked up enough, he wouldn't just shove me aside. I thought he would hit me -- a lot. Like I've said, I've had a few run-ins with violent acting men, but he was the only one I've felt this from. And I've no idea if I was right or just really scared and not thinking straight. So it was this weird standoff, during which I couldn't figure a way out. And I was shaking so badly by this time and didn't even trust my body to obey me or that I was thinking straight. Odd, but I can't remember a single thing I said to him; I just remember trying to get Ida to sit back down and bossing that woman around. I'm sure I must have talked to him, but I've no recollection.

It just seemed to go on and on. Ida trying to lift her feet out of the tub, a look of terror on her face. I couldn't get to her. She wouldn't just sit down like I kept telling her. I kept wondering why the police weren't there yet. I'm sure it was less than ten minutes, but it felt like forever. I just couldn't think of a solution. I remembering thinking that I wasn't worried that he'd kill me; I was just afraid of being hit a lot. I remember feeling shame, in the moment, about those thoughts.

Then, even weirder, when two policemen did arrived, he just poof changed. He was all hang-dog and compliant. It really was a poof, snap-your-fingers change. (Another bit I've never understood.) Poor Ida had managed to get one foot out of the tub, but was still trapped with the other foot in the tub. The woman started screaming even more loudly. The police handcuffed him and took him out. One of them came back for the woman. Ida has a wreck, shaking; she'd thrown up. I tipped Ida back into her chair. The police asked me a couple of questions and fifteen minutes from when it started, I was back massaging Ida's feet and the water was still warm. I don't think I stopped shaking for another twenty minutes, but it was just over. The couple never came back to the apartment.

I came away from that experience frustrated because I do think it was headed for something a lot worse, and it was only because the police arrived that it stopped. But I don't really know if my senses were off kilter or not. I think about what if the police had been five minutes later or I'd never got to the phone. I think about how this man and woman had probably been going at it for years and that my actions may have [censored] him off so much that he would have taken it much further if he'd got hold of her, and I wonder if I made it worse. But I don't know what I was supposed to do. I think about how I couldn't come up with a solution to this standoff thing, which I felt pretty sure I was going to lose if not for the police showing up. I also think about how little I was able to think and act in the middle of things.

I suspect that understanding this situation, the scariest in terms of domestic interventions I've encountered, would help me figure out some of why my scenes aren't doing what I want them to do.

I'm off to bring a yacht up AK's Inside Passage for the next couple of weeks. I'm crossing my fingers that I'll come back to some scintillating discussion on this topic.

novegirl

You should read Gavin De Becker's "The gift of fear". It is a superb book by an expert on self-protection. Oldman (a member on here) recommended the book to me. Mr De Becker has helped advise a lot of women about self-protection. He would be a good source of information for you.

De Becker talks about understanding and listening to instincts as a means of self-protection. He said people often instinctively knew when something was wrong in a situation, but rather than question the outside world, people question themselves and their own instinct.


http://www.oprah.com/oprahshow/Gavin-de-Becker-Talks-About-Abusive-Relationships-Video_1

You have made this distinction before, implying that there is a fundamental difference in motivation for intervention between genders. I would urge you to discard this, as it is not the case. Anyone who intervenes in a violent crime shares the same 'goal', that being the safety of the persons at risk. The methods may vary, but the motivations are uniform.

As to the situation at the farmhouse, you quite often see people in a destructive rage, happy to damage the inanimate, but with no real compulsion to harm people. This is why he was happy to demolish a door, but backed away from hurting you. If he was prepared to hurt in order to get to his wife, then he simply would have done it in the height of his momentum, and swept you aside upon gaining entry. The punching of walls, the ranting and shouting is all a dissipation of aggression. Its a coping mechanism. All the time such things are used, as frightening as it may seem to be around, there is little chance of physical escalation. Equate it to a bull elephant's 'dummy' charge- a bluff, a show of dominance, but no intent of completion.
The police arriving signaled the end of the illusion, hence the instant passivity - I guarantee that that this couples relationship consisted of far more psychological, than physical abuse. He will have condtioned her to be scared of his anger for its own sake, and there will have been much more damage done to TV's and doors than to her person over the years.

As to dealing with it, you just do what you can. That is no different for men or women, and whilst training can give you more tools in a distressing situation, there is never any sure fire way to 'prepare' for something that could go any one of hundreds of ways. I have been dealing with violent incidents and confrontation professionaly one way or another for 20 years, and with all the experience in the world, you often come away with a feeling that you 'just winged it' and made it up as you went along, and in a sense that is always true, and also healthy - the day you become nonchelant and stroll in thinking you have it all worked out will be the day you wake up in hospital wondering who changed the script

Hello novegirl:

You ask a difficult question. I fear that Zach may have several good points. However...


<<how women fight differently than men.

Two arms, two legs, a brain... you/they (women) are the same in most ways in the context in which most of us typically encounter them. We do not see "frail", nor "weak". We do not notice their breasts, their bodies, their lips, their eyes... they are our opponents and our partners, sometimes total strangers, sometimes they are our friends.

But they can harm any of us, badly and very easily if we dismiss their ability(ies) solely because they are female, supposedly a "lessor threat". A foolish mistake.

There are a few books I might suggest to describe the perspective I think you might be seeking?


"Women in the Martial Arts; A New Spirit Rising" Linda Atkinson

Far and away the template by/from which the other later works were written.

"A Woman's Guide to Martial Arts..." Monica McCabe Cardoza (Overlook Press)

"Women in the Martial Arts" Edited by Carol Wiley (North Atlantic Books) would be one.

=========

Though I am sure many here can certainly articulate their views
I suspect the group you will want to speak with/explore is the National Women's Martial Arts Federation http://www.nwmaf.org

Perhaps they will have a unique perspective which as men, we might not possess?

Jeff

Forgive me for saying so, but the way you put the question risks attracting some pretty stereotypical answers. It may not, but it's a risk.

In any case, I doubt the differences are huge. Male and female martial artists practice the same skills, so they probably fight using roughly the same techniques and strategies. A female martial artist who was smaller and lighter than a male opponent would probably fight the same way a smaller, lighter man would.

I suppose you could try contacting groups such as The Guardian Angels in London. They have a page on Facebook as UK Guardian Angels. I mention them because they were founded by a woman who used to do female protection patrols on her own. When I interviewed them several years ago they had a number of female members (which, I believe, some of the US chapters had stopped for some time).

One thing I've noticed with intelligent female MAists, while sparring, is they don't attempt to trade blow for blow with a guy my size. They get in and get out quickly. They are often more nimble and flexible and use this to an advantage.

That said, small guys do the same.

That's for sure Trevek. I've noticed that when sparring with the upper belt women black and brown belts I have to be ready for their sneaky techniques. They buzz in and out from angles that make it harder for me to counter.That beig said, I like sparring with the women because their deceptive way of attacking forces me to use better timing and be lighter on my feet.

keep training, Mark

Most men have an aversion to hitting women. Some women will use this aversion to confront men, and rely upon this aversion to avoid the danger involved. They intervene with the expectation that they will not be struck or others will protect them. They have no illusions of defeating the man physicality and stand bravely relying on others (the aggressor or bystanders) for safety.

Men who intervene have to expect a physical confrontation and rely upon their physical power (in posturing or fighting) to come through the danger.

The goals are the same in intervening but the mindset is different. Of course, these are big generalizations but this is what I have witnessed most often.