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#432316 - 05/05/11 11:43 PM Tai Chi Swords
LilJohn Offline
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Registered: 05/05/11
Posts: 2
Have any of you purchased any of the Paul Chen tai chi swords for your personal use or collection? I am interested in the blade flexibility, fit and finish of the furniture and balance and grip of these swords.

Thanks for any or all input.

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#432382 - 05/14/11 10:38 PM Re: Tai Chi Swords [Re: LilJohn]
47MartialMan Offline
Member

Registered: 11/17/04
Posts: 180
Paul Chen is a good craftsman.

However, I did not know Tai Chi had any swords.... smile


Edited by 47MartialMan (05/14/11 10:38 PM)

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#432464 - 05/23/11 04:53 PM Re: Tai Chi Swords [Re: 47MartialMan]
trevek Offline
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#432474 - 05/24/11 02:54 AM Re: Tai Chi Swords [Re: trevek]
Allyssa Offline
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What is the difference between the two swords?
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#432491 - 05/25/11 07:41 AM Re: Tai Chi Swords [Re: Allyssa]
trevek Offline
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One is long and thin, whereas the other is a broadsword, (a bit like a scimitar kind of thing)
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#432595 - 05/31/11 10:19 PM Re: Tai Chi Swords [Re: trevek]
47MartialMan Offline
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Registered: 11/17/04
Posts: 180


Actually, these are NOT "Tai Chi Swords"

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#432606 - 06/01/11 07:42 AM Re: Tai Chi Swords [Re: 47MartialMan]
trevek Offline
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Originally Posted By: 47MartialMan


Actually, these are NOT "Tai Chi Swords"


How not? I've seen both used by TC practitioners and the vids say they are TC sword patterns.

I assume you mean they are not solely used by TC practitioners, hence they are "Chinese swords". Agreed.


Edited by trevek (06/01/11 07:44 AM)
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#432636 - 06/03/11 09:56 PM Re: Tai Chi Swords [Re: trevek]
47MartialMan Offline
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Registered: 11/17/04
Posts: 180
They were never intended to be Tai Ji Swords. This type of sword was made long before someone out there misnamed them. This incorrect wording is 20th century terminology

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#432644 - 06/04/11 05:56 AM Re: Tai Chi Swords [Re: 47MartialMan]
trevek Offline
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Originally Posted By: 47MartialMan
They were never intended to be Tai Ji Swords. This type of sword was made long before someone out there misnamed them. This incorrect wording is 20th century terminology


I suppose you could also say it is a western terminology too. I imagine in Chinese they are simply known by a single name rather than Tai Chi broadsword/sabre etc. It probably also comes from the idea of a TC sword pattern, where the term TC morphs into an adjective rather than a noun (sword pattern of TC), therefore giving the impression that there is a specific sword belonging to TC.

However, I do qonder if this is a case of Black sash in pedanticism ;-)
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#432712 - 06/10/11 11:01 PM Re: Tai Chi Swords [Re: trevek]
47MartialMan Offline
Member

Registered: 11/17/04
Posts: 180
Originally Posted By: trevek
Originally Posted By: 47MartialMan
They were never intended to be Tai Ji Swords. This type of sword was made long before someone out there misnamed them. This incorrect wording is 20th century terminology


I suppose you could also say it is a western terminology too. I imagine in Chinese they are simply known by a single name rather than Tai Chi broadsword/sabre etc. It probably also comes from the idea of a TC sword pattern, where the term TC morphs into an adjective rather than a noun (sword pattern of TC), therefore giving the impression that there is a specific sword belonging to TC.

However, I do qonder if this is a case of Black sash in pedanticism ;-)


Chinese jian

A lighter version of the traditional sword and theatrical versions of traditional sword forms are also used in the "taijiquan" routines of wushu curriculum. The wushu sword is a narrow, double-edged Chinese jian with a thin blade designed to make noise when it is shaken by the competitor during competition and a tassel is always attached to the pommel. The jian variants used for taijijian wushu display or as training tools in modern day martial arts schools often have properties that render them unsuitable for historically accurate combat. These properties, such as extreme blade thinness or a high degree of flexibility compared to historical battlefield quality jian, are intended to add auditory and visual appeal to a wushu performance.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taijijian

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#432770 - 06/12/11 05:57 PM Re: Tai Chi Swords [Re: 47MartialMan]
trevek Offline
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Registered: 05/15/05
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But does this mean because one does taiji one can only use the competition swords... can't one train with the heavier swords for fencing purposes?
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#432815 - 06/15/11 11:12 PM Re: Tai Chi Swords [Re: trevek]
47MartialMan Offline
Member

Registered: 11/17/04
Posts: 180
Originally Posted By: trevek
But does this mean because one does taiji one can only use the competition swords... can't one train with the heavier swords for fencing purposes?


Tai Ji doesn't have fencing

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#432824 - 06/16/11 06:28 AM Re: Tai Chi Swords [Re: 47MartialMan]
trevek Offline
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Registered: 05/15/05
Posts: 3337
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Originally Posted By: 47MartialMan
Originally Posted By: trevek
But does this mean because one does taiji one can only use the competition swords... can't one train with the heavier swords for fencing purposes?


Tai Ji doesn't have fencing


You mean that nobody trained in sword technique in Tai Ji can actually fight with a sword? NOBODY actually trains to utilise a sword? Weird!
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#432882 - 06/20/11 01:13 AM Re: Tai Chi Swords [Re: trevek]
47MartialMan Offline
Member

Registered: 11/17/04
Posts: 180
Originally Posted By: trevek
Originally Posted By: 47MartialMan
Originally Posted By: trevek
But does this mean because one does taiji one can only use the competition swords... can't one train with the heavier swords for fencing purposes?


Tai Ji doesn't have fencing


You mean that nobody trained in sword technique in Tai Ji can actually fight with a sword? NOBODY actually trains to utilise a sword? Weird!


Fencing is a whole different discipline

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#432892 - 06/20/11 12:50 PM Re: Tai Chi Swords [Re: 47MartialMan]
trevek Offline
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Registered: 05/15/05
Posts: 3337
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I was, of course, referring to "fencing" in it's original meaning, of swordsmanship for comabt and deFENCE.

According to the mighty wiki:

Taijijian (simplified Chinese: 太极剑; traditional Chinese: 太極劍; pinyin: tijjin; literally "Taiji Sword") is a straight two-edged sword used in the training of the Chinese martial art Taijiquan. The straight sword, sometimes with a tassel and sometimes not, is used for upper body conditioning and martial training in traditional Taijiquan schools. The different family schools have various warmups, forms and fencing drills for training with the jian.
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#432906 - 06/21/11 09:57 PM Re: Tai Chi Swords [Re: trevek]
47MartialMan Offline
Member

Registered: 11/17/04
Posts: 180
Originally Posted By: trevek
I was, of course, referring to "fencing" in it's original meaning, of swordsmanship for comabt and deFENCE.

According to the mighty wiki:

Taijijian (simplified Chinese: 太极剑; traditional Chinese: 太極劍; pinyin: tijjin; literally "Taiji Sword") is a straight two-edged sword used in the training of the Chinese martial art Taijiquan. The straight sword, sometimes with a tassel and sometimes not, is used for upper body conditioning and martial training in traditional Taijiquan schools. The different family schools have various warmups, forms and fencing drills for training with the jian.


Wiki is not all accurate

There is a difference of Tai Ji and Tai Ji Quan

And Jian is a sword long before TaiJi using it

And Chinese "fencing", is not like European "fencing"

You cant label both as fencing when one is truly fencing and the other is JianShu

Jian Shu, Chinese "Sword Method", is not at all associated with the flowery and degraded "Tai Ji Sword displays

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#432936 - 06/23/11 09:22 AM Re: Tai Chi Swords [Re: 47MartialMan]
trevek Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/15/05
Posts: 3337
Loc: Poland
Originally Posted By: 47MartialMan

Wiki is not all accurate

There is a difference of Tai Ji and Tai Ji Quan

And Jian is a sword long before TaiJi using it

And Chinese "fencing", is not like European "fencing"

You cant label both as fencing when one is truly fencing and the other is JianShu

Jian Shu, Chinese "Sword Method", is not at all associated with the flowery and degraded "Tai Ji Sword displays


You are the one who initially cited/quoted wiki!

However, I now understand that you are basing your argument on the difference between Tai Ji and Tai Ji Quan (assuming the initial use in the OP and the advert recognised the difference as well).

OK, I understand your point as this: TJ is a aesthetic and degraded style based on original TJQ, utilising visual and auditory effects over practical useage. As such the swrods cannot be considered TJ swords because they are of a different quality/standard/type.

TJQ is a more practical style, utilising sword systems of a more practical nature, as well as utilising swords which were originally used in other styles, therefore are not wholly TJQ swords. As such, it is a misnomer to refer to them as TJ or TJQ swords.

Am I correct?

As for the "fencing" point, of course there are stylistic differences between Western and Chinese sword styles. However, not being familiar with the Chinese term(s) for opponent based combat swordplay, I chose to use a generic Western term.

My use of the term "fencing" is similar to the use of western terminology when describing Chinese swords as "sabres" etc (which would qualify it as "fencing"), or using the term "boxing", when referring to Chinese Boxing. I see no problem using the term "fencing" to mean swordplay against an opponent, especially when it is clear from the context that I do not refer to the different styles of western fencing.


So, does Jian-shu use combat/opponent-based sword-sparring? Also, is Jian-shu the same across different aspects of Wu Shu disciplines?


Edited by trevek (06/23/11 09:26 AM)
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#432954 - 06/25/11 04:18 AM Re: Tai Chi Swords [Re: trevek]
trevek Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/15/05
Posts: 3337
Loc: Poland
@47MartialMan

I do appreciate the information you are giving, btw (seriously).
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#432973 - 06/27/11 05:10 PM Re: Tai Chi Swords [Re: trevek]
47MartialMan Offline
Member

Registered: 11/17/04
Posts: 180
Originally Posted By: trevek
i!

However, I now understand that you are basing your argument on the difference between Tai Ji and Tai Ji Quan (assuming the initial use in the OP and the advert recognised the difference as well).

OK, I understand your point as this: TJ is a aesthetic and degraded style based on original TJQ, utilising visual and auditory effects over practical useage. As such the swrods cannot be considered TJ swords because they are of a different quality/standard/type.

TJQ is a more practical style, utilising sword systems of a more practical nature, as well as utilising swords which were originally used in other styles, therefore are not wholly TJQ swords. As such, it is a misnomer to refer to them as TJ or TJQ swords.

Am I correct?

As for the "fencing" point, of course there are stylistic differences between Western and Chinese sword styles. However, not being familiar with the Chinese term(s) for opponent based combat swordplay, I chose to use a generic Western term.

My use of the term "fencing" is similar to the use of western terminology when describing Chinese swords as "sabres" etc (which would qualify it as "fencing"), or using the term "boxing", when referring to Chinese Boxing. I see no problem using the term "fencing" to mean swordplay against an opponent, especially when it is clear from the context that I do not refer to the different styles of western fencing.


So, does Jian-shu use combat/opponent-based sword-sparring? Also, is Jian-shu the same across different aspects of Wu Shu disciplines?


First and/or foremost, i have not considered anything I post as a "argument"

I view everything as a discussion

And, I did like the above post of yours.

The problem with martial arts, especially those of long history, is the misuse of their terms and methods

People tend to be complacent into reading or being told "one particular" thing and then someone finds out more info, esp that a little different, said "complacent people" are quick to dismiss

I became a martial art scholar some years after being a martial artist.

I rather research many different things

I like to find out the "Why?"

When I find out the answer to one "Why?", I ask "why?" to that answer

And in perpetual motion I learn and discover more things

One cannot be complacent or biased when researching the "Why?"

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#432990 - 06/28/11 06:24 PM Re: Tai Chi Swords [Re: 47MartialMan]
trevek Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/15/05
Posts: 3337
Loc: Poland
A superb reply.

I must apologise for the use of "argument", meaning it more as "stance" or "approach".

Discussions are always to be encouraged, and I must thank you for engaging me in this one. Please be assured, I am not as complacent as i may appear.

:-)
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#433016 - 06/29/11 10:43 PM Re: Tai Chi Swords [Re: trevek]
47MartialMan Offline
Member

Registered: 11/17/04
Posts: 180
Originally Posted By: trevek
A superb reply.

I must apologise for the use of "argument", meaning it more as "stance" or "approach".

Discussions are always to be encouraged, and I must thank you for engaging me in this one. Please be assured, I am not as complacent as i may appear.

:-)


I nevered thought of you as complacent, narrrow, biased, etc.

I enjoy reading posts which bring forth more rhetorical exchanges.

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#433024 - 06/30/11 03:10 PM Re: Tai Chi Swords [Re: 47MartialMan]
trevek Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/15/05
Posts: 3337
Loc: Poland
Originally Posted By: 47MartialMan


I nevered thought of you as complacent, narrrow, biased, etc.

I enjoy reading posts which bring forth more rhetorical exchanges.



Likewise.

So, to an earlier question, do any of the schools of swordsmanship we have talked about actually do "sword-sparring" and what does it look like?
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#433030 - 06/30/11 11:27 PM Re: Tai Chi Swords [Re: trevek]
47MartialMan Offline
Member

Registered: 11/17/04
Posts: 180
Originally Posted By: trevek
Originally Posted By: 47MartialMan


I nevered thought of you as complacent, narrrow, biased, etc.

I enjoy reading posts which bring forth more rhetorical exchanges.



Likewise.

So, to an earlier question, do any of the schools of swordsmanship we have talked about actually do "sword-sparring" and what does it look like?


The typical or common are Fencing (Known as Modern or Sport Fencing) and Kendo

Although, fencing seems to be more common as there are many Fencing Clubs at Collegiate Universities

I never came across Tai Chi, or any other "atypical" martial art actually having swordplay, other than single man forms

I have seen a few rare or scant schools of Renaissance Swordsmanship


http://www.meetup.com/DFW-Schola-Saint-George-Medieval-Renaissance-Swordsmanship/events/18165691/

http://www.swordfightingschool.com/school.html

http://www.historicalfencing.com/

http://www.swordacademy.com/

In a world of firearms and unarmed training, swordplay seems to be more obscure.

I guess because swords are no longer "the weapon of the day", like it was long ago.

That said, I have studied both, Fencing and Kendo, on a short time, to know that swordplay will help in common cudgel fighting

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#433034 - 07/01/11 03:40 PM Re: Tai Chi Swords [Re: 47MartialMan]
trevek Offline
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Registered: 05/15/05
Posts: 3337
Loc: Poland
Interesting. Thanks.

I know there was an instructor in England, Terry Brown, who specialised in English martial arts and worked with swords. I've also met guys who do medieval reenactment and train with broad swords, and a few Scottish groups using claymores.

I was wondering about western fencing and cudgel/stick play. I have problems with sparring unarmed these days, and was poindering trying fencing.
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#433054 - 07/03/11 06:00 PM Re: Tai Chi Swords [Re: trevek]
47MartialMan Offline
Member

Registered: 11/17/04
Posts: 180
Originally Posted By: trevek
Interesting. Thanks.

I know there was an instructor in England, Terry Brown, who specialised in English martial arts and worked with swords. I've also met guys who do medieval reenactment and train with broad swords, and a few Scottish groups using claymores.

I was wondering about western fencing and cudgel/stick play. I have problems with sparring unarmed these days, and was poindering trying fencing.


I was thinking on going back to fencing.

However, the local clubs does not have a group of people my "age"

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#433068 - 07/04/11 02:43 PM Re: Tai Chi Swords [Re: 47MartialMan]
trevek Offline
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Registered: 05/15/05
Posts: 3337
Loc: Poland
Not sure mine do... I'll have to see.
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#433079 - 07/05/11 01:04 AM Re: Tai Chi Swords [Re: trevek]
47MartialMan Offline
Member

Registered: 11/17/04
Posts: 180
Fencing and Kendo have a lot to offer, although each are slightly different

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#433095 - 07/05/11 04:37 PM Re: Tai Chi Swords [Re: 47MartialMan]
trevek Offline
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Registered: 05/15/05
Posts: 3337
Loc: Poland
I'm certainly giving them some thought. there's a high quality kendo school in town too, but I don't think I'll go for it. Need to avoid to much contact to the head.
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#433099 - 07/05/11 10:37 PM Re: Tai Chi Swords [Re: trevek]
iaibear Offline
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Registered: 08/24/05
Posts: 1304
Loc: upstate New York
I always thought Kendo practitioners wore armor including headgear (helmets).

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#433100 - 07/05/11 11:05 PM Re: Tai Chi Swords [Re: iaibear]
47MartialMan Offline
Member

Registered: 11/17/04
Posts: 180
Yes. They wear a "men" (caged helmet)

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#433110 - 07/06/11 09:08 AM Re: Tai Chi Swords [Re: 47MartialMan]
trevek Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/15/05
Posts: 3337
Loc: Poland
Hmmm, I can imagine the look in the pub if I said I'd spent the evening with my head incased in men!

No, with me it's my neck. This trapped nerve is a swine and it doesn't take a lot ot set it off again. I was doing some easy wing chun training, where the partner just pulls your arm and you step forward with the momentum and put an elbow in his face. The pulling of the arm set it off for a few days!
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#433114 - 07/06/11 01:40 PM Re: Tai Chi Swords [Re: trevek]
iaibear Offline
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Registered: 08/24/05
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Loc: upstate New York
The neck is also armored by the men

http://therionarms.com/misc/therionarms_s004.html

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#433121 - 07/06/11 10:33 PM Re: Tai Chi Swords [Re: iaibear]
47MartialMan Offline
Member

Registered: 11/17/04
Posts: 180
Kendo is a wonderful art to study. Uniquely different

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