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#432016 - 04/10/11 07:38 AM Re: Culture of violence: Gun crime in UK [Re: Stormdragon]
duanew Offline
Member

Registered: 06/28/08
Posts: 326
Loc: MN
Quote:
"Sure, once in a while they might thwart a robbery attempt. But let's face it, people who feel they need to have a gun on them at all times are often of, shall we say, a certain mindset.

I've met a quite a few of them. They tend to be angry, aggressive, even paranoid.".


The same can be said and has been said of those crazy paranoid martial "artists" who go stalking around just looking to bust someones head open-looking to satisfy some deep seated paranoia caused by feelings of inadequacy. Does anyone really need to know how to beat people up in this age? Isn't that why we have the police and 911 (or whatever number you use 999, 611)? Anyone who participates in such a barbaric activity must have some serious anti-social tendencies.

Duane

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#432020 - 04/10/11 02:13 PM Re: Culture of violence: Gun crime in UK [Re: duanew]
fileboy2002 Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 11/13/05
Posts: 999
Loc: Chicago, IL
You fired off a lot of rapid, disconnected, and somewhat sarcastic questions here, which makes it a bit difficult for me to give you a coherent response. But I'm going to try. Let me focus on the issue of "criminals" vs. "law-abiding citizens."

As I said before, drawing a sharp line of demarcation between "criminals" and "law-abiding citizens" can be misleading. The division only looks sharp if you focus on the far extremes of behavior--e.g. the difference between someone with no criminal record and someone with multiple felonies. However, between these extremes is a big grey area that we shouldn't ignore.

In the US, about 25% of the working-age population has a criminal history of some kind. That is to say, 1 out of every 4 adults have, at some point in their lives, been taken into custody by law enforcement and fingerprinted. This has received a fair amount of press coverage lately, usually in stories relating to the ongoing unemployment crisis.

The background screenings employers run on prospective employees usually take the form of fingerprint checks. If a prospective employee has ever been fingerprinted for any reason, a "hit" will appear on his or her record. A "hit" can mean anything, from an arrest for public drunkenness to an arrest for murder. The employer doesn't know, because criminal records are private. Only the prospective employee has a right to see his or her records. All employers can do is request the prospective employee provide them with a disposition of the relevant case. They can then review the disposition and decide whether or not the charge is serious enough to merit disqualifying the would-be employee.

But there's a problem. Many, many companies won't do this. Many companies have a "zero-tolerance" policy when it comes to background checks. If a background check on a prospective employee comes back with a hit, that person is automatically removed from consideration. It doesn't matter if they were arrested for jaywalking or murder-for-hire. Either way, their applications are tossed aside.

I know I am getting a little removed from the issue of gun control. But I am trying to make a point. I am trying to explain how easily a person can end up tagged with a label like "criminal" even though they really don't deserve it. It shows how subjective and unreliable such labels can be. Do you think 25% of the US working-age population are "criminals?" I don't.

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#432024 - 04/10/11 03:21 PM Re: Culture of violence: Gun crime in UK [Re: fileboy2002]
Stormdragon Offline
Who Dares Wins
Professional Poster

Registered: 08/05/04
Posts: 3409
Loc: Salem, OR
I was being very specific. Far fewer acts of gun misuse or crime while carrying on their person occur from someone legally holding a CCP then someone who isn't authorized to do so by law. One issue with this, is that some of the more pacifistic people out there who have never been under a serious physical threat would look at a lot of self defense uses of guns and say "they just shot for no reason" but having been under physical threat on my life I think in more cases then not it was genuine self defense. If someone is showing hostile intent and has the capacity to hurt you immediately then you have a right to use physical violence (not saying shooting but force nonetheless).
_________________________
Member of DaJoGen MMA school under Dave Hagen and Team Chaos fight team under Denver Mangiyatan and Chris Toquero, ran out of Zanshin Martial Arts in Salem Oregon: http://www.zanshinarts.org/Home.aspx,

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#432056 - 04/12/11 08:38 PM Re: Culture of violence: Gun crime in UK [Re: fileboy2002]
duanew Offline
Member

Registered: 06/28/08
Posts: 326
Loc: MN
Originally Posted By: fileboy2002
Yo Do you think 25% of the US working-age population are "criminals?" I don't.


Where do you get your statistics from?

Duane

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#432059 - 04/13/11 03:39 AM Re: Culture of violence: Gun crime in UK [Re: duanew]
Stormdragon Offline
Who Dares Wins
Professional Poster

Registered: 08/05/04
Posts: 3409
Loc: Salem, OR
Originally Posted By: duanew
Originally Posted By: fileboy2002
Yo Do you think 25% of the US working-age population are "criminals?" I don't.


Where do you get your statistics from?

Duane


I can actually believe it's somewhere close to that. It's saying any crime. A lot of people will do small stuff.
_________________________
Member of DaJoGen MMA school under Dave Hagen and Team Chaos fight team under Denver Mangiyatan and Chris Toquero, ran out of Zanshin Martial Arts in Salem Oregon: http://www.zanshinarts.org/Home.aspx,

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#432082 - 04/13/11 06:38 PM Re: Culture of violence: Gun crime in UK [Re: Stormdragon]
duanew Offline
Member

Registered: 06/28/08
Posts: 326
Loc: MN
As we have seen already "believing" a statistic is close isn't the same as the actual statistic. Remember 87.35% of all statistics that people quote are made up to prove a point.
Duane

There are three types of liars-liars, damn liars and statisticians-Mark Twain

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#432084 - 04/14/11 03:50 AM Re: Culture of violence: Gun crime in UK [Re: duanew]
Stormdragon Offline
Who Dares Wins
Professional Poster

Registered: 08/05/04
Posts: 3409
Loc: Salem, OR
Guess it comes down to faith. You never can be certain really, just choose what sounds right to you.
_________________________
Member of DaJoGen MMA school under Dave Hagen and Team Chaos fight team under Denver Mangiyatan and Chris Toquero, ran out of Zanshin Martial Arts in Salem Oregon: http://www.zanshinarts.org/Home.aspx,

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#432091 - 04/15/11 07:23 AM Re: Culture of violence: Gun crime in UK [Re: Stormdragon]
Cord Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/13/05
Posts: 11399
Loc: Cambridge UK.
From a UK perspective, dealing with frontline conflict management for 2 decades, I will try and address some of the points raised in this conversation.

1. Every HandGun/automatic rifle used today in the UK was sourced illegaly, or activated illegaly. Our olympic pistol team has to store their weapons, and train with them in france!! There have been several 'arms aministice' drives over the last 60 years, that have seen pretty much all old WWII service revolvers handed in, destroyed, or deactivated.
Glocks, AK's, mac-10's - these have NEVER been legal weapons in the UK in live-fire form. There has been a flourishing illegal trade in reactivation of decomissioned firearms however, but its not like in the US, where there are tens of thousands of registered weapons lying around to be stolen or sold unwisely.

2. The escalation in gun crime represents a shift in culture, and nature of punishment within the UK.

When I was a teenager, and for generations before that, settling a dispute with a weapon branded you a coward. If you pulled a knife/gun, you were admitting you couldnt fight. Territoriality, money, love, whatever the dispute, you would never deprive yourself the pleasure of putting fist to face.
Guns were the preserve of organised crime and high-stake robberies- manely used as tools to ensure cooperation, and not to be used lightly. Knives were for muggers. By and large, this was the order of things, and for murder to take place, there had to be a strong motive - life had value, both to the offender, and the court, where sentencing for murder meant 25 years minimum in jail. Even the organised violence of football hooliganism rarely resulted in death.

All that has changed now. When young people fight now, they are more prone to kill- kicking/stamping when the fight is over and won, pulling a knife, or shooting out of some inflated sense of bravado. I leave the reasons for this shift to the psychologists to ponder, but I can tell you, as a former 'bad lad' that if guns had been readily available to me, or my peers, we wouldnt have used them- because nothing was worth killing for.
_________________________
Don't let the door hit ya' where the good lord split ya'
http://cord.mybrute.com

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#432093 - 04/15/11 02:00 PM Re: Culture of violence: Gun crime in UK [Re: Cord]
Stormdragon Offline
Who Dares Wins
Professional Poster

Registered: 08/05/04
Posts: 3409
Loc: Salem, OR
The tool used is really a trivial detail, doesn't make much difference, it's a cultural (or sub-cultural I guess) and psychological trend that has to be addressed.
_________________________
Member of DaJoGen MMA school under Dave Hagen and Team Chaos fight team under Denver Mangiyatan and Chris Toquero, ran out of Zanshin Martial Arts in Salem Oregon: http://www.zanshinarts.org/Home.aspx,

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#432094 - 04/15/11 02:57 PM Re: Culture of violence: Gun crime in UK [Re: Stormdragon]
Stormdragon Offline
Who Dares Wins
Professional Poster

Registered: 08/05/04
Posts: 3409
Loc: Salem, OR
Hey Cord is football hooliganism really like that movie Green Street Hooligans.
_________________________
Member of DaJoGen MMA school under Dave Hagen and Team Chaos fight team under Denver Mangiyatan and Chris Toquero, ran out of Zanshin Martial Arts in Salem Oregon: http://www.zanshinarts.org/Home.aspx,

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