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#431997 - 04/09/11 11:52 AM Re: Culture of violence: Gun crime in UK [Re: Stormdragon]
fileboy2002 Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 11/13/05
Posts: 999
Loc: Chicago, IL
Your arguments against gun control are much better than the ones I usually hear.

Chicago and Washington D.C have the strictest anti-gun ordinances in the country (or had; Chicago's gun ban was recently ruled unconstitutional). Yet, this seems to have had little impact one way or the other on homicide rates.

In my view, the reason is simple. Both Chicago and DC are surrounded by suburbs--as well as entire states--whose gun control laws are very lax. Anyone in Chicago who wants to buy a gun can simply drive out to the suburbs and get one; a resident in DC can just shoot over to Virginia or Maryland.

The UK has a unitary system of government. That makes it relatively easy to pass gun bans on a nationwide level. The US has a federal system, so gun laws are an uneven patchwork of federal standards, state laws, and municipal ordinances. The kind of gun control the anti-gun crowd would like to see may well be impossible to implement in the US.

The point about Switzerland is a good one. Canada also has a per capita rate of gun ownership that mirrors the US one, yet Canadians are much less apt to shoot each other than people in the USA. Clearly, there is more involved than simply owning a gun.

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#431998 - 04/09/11 12:26 PM Re: Culture of violence: Gun crime in UK [Re: fileboy2002]
Stormdragon Offline
Who Dares Wins
Professional Poster

Registered: 08/05/04
Posts: 3409
Loc: Salem, OR
Thanks, I wrote an 8 or 9 page paper on it not too long ago. Lot's of research went into the subject.
The other thing about the UK is that it's much, much, much smaller. That has an impact on the ease with which you can enforce gun bans.
As for those areas being surrounded by places with lax gun laws yes that's a valid point and it does appear to be a good possibility as to why those bans have had little effect. And it probably is part of it, however, keep in mind, Virginia Beach has a lower gun crime rate despite much more lax gun laws.
Your last statement hits it on the head I think although I'm not sure they have as many guns as us. My problem with the gun control crowd is I think they sometimes forget about looking into other root causes besides just how many guns there are in people's hands (I'm a gun owner and am totally agaisnt any bans on guns however I am in favor of soem regulation and gun control).
_________________________
Member of DaJoGen MMA school under Dave Hagen and Team Chaos fight team under Denver Mangiyatan and Chris Toquero, ran out of Zanshin Martial Arts in Salem Oregon: http://www.zanshinarts.org/Home.aspx,

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#431999 - 04/09/11 01:01 PM Re: Culture of violence: Gun crime in UK [Re: Stormdragon]
MattJ Offline
Free Rhinoplasty!
Prolific

Registered: 11/25/04
Posts: 15634
Loc: York PA. USA
Good points from both of you. Gun control is a very complex and difficult topic, and I have yet to make an opinion on it.
_________________________
"In case you ever wondered what it's like to be knocked out, it's like waking up from a nightmare only to discover it wasn't a dream." -Forrest Griffin

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#432001 - 04/09/11 03:45 PM Re: Culture of violence: Gun crime in UK [Re: MattJ]
iaibear Offline
Veteran

Registered: 08/24/05
Posts: 1304
Loc: upstate New York
You folks keep talking about "murder" and "homicide". Are you sure what percentage of those killings were committed with a gun?

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#432002 - 04/09/11 04:23 PM Re: Culture of violence: Gun crime in UK [Re: iaibear]
fileboy2002 Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 11/13/05
Posts: 999
Loc: Chicago, IL
I know that in the US, guns are used in a huge percentage of homicides. It varies a bit from year to year, but the numbers are always high. Incidentally, guns are used in a lot of suicides, too.

I don't really have a problem with people who choose to keep guns in their homes or at their place of business. What really bothers me is the recent push for right-to-carry laws. Letting people walk around with concealed firearms just seems like a terrible idea to me.

Sure, once in a while they might thwart a robbery attempt. But let's face it, people who feel they need to have a gun on them at all times are often of, shall we say, a certain mindset.

I've met a quite a few of them. They tend to be angry, aggressive, even paranoid. They are the kind of people who carry guns in their cars as a defense against carjackers, but end up killing people in disputes over parking spaces. There's an awful lot of trivial spats that turn into homicides simply because someone chose to carry a concealed firearm.

Last summer in Chicago, two men were shot, one fatally, at a funeral. Turns out the shooter had opened fire because he felt the two men were "disrespecting" him.

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#432003 - 04/09/11 05:35 PM Re: Culture of violence: Gun crime in UK [Re: fileboy2002]
Stormdragon Offline
Who Dares Wins
Professional Poster

Registered: 08/05/04
Posts: 3409
Loc: Salem, OR
Actually gun related violence including homicides has dropped over the past 20 years, not by a huge margin but enough to make a noticeable difference. Accidental deaths from guns has dropped too. Suicides I'm not sure about.

And honestly I resent that comment about people who practice right-to-carry, in a few months I plan to be one of those and I'm not paranoid or overly aggressive, I haven't been in a fight since 2007. I get along with people. that being said, crap happens, there are people out there who like killing innocent people whether you want to believe it or not and I want to have a means of handling such a situation if it arises. I believe in hoping for the best but preparing for the worst, it's not paranoia it just goes with my training as a soldier and what I see. I have probably a dozen or so friends with CCP's (mostly my Army buddies and some cops one civilian) and none of them are crazy paranoid nuts or even loudmouths. They are some of the most decent and reliable people I know. Far, far more gun-related criems are committed by people who don't have a license to carry.
You state it doesn't make sense to allow for concealed carry and that and started telling about criems related to that but then didn't differentiate between people who do it legally (and have to go through training and a background check typically) and those who just do it because they think they can get away with it illegally.
With off-duty and retired cops it's especially necessary, I shouldn't have to explain why either. It's udnerstandable among soldiers as well. With average people, as long as they are checked out thoroughly and given some classes I see no issue with it. In fact, I've never even heard of someone with a CCP drawing and firing for no good reason.

I'm sorry but as long as criminals have ways to carry guns hidden then I have the right. It also depends where you live. I know some places I sometimes have reason to go to where it makes a whole lot of sense. And criems aren't thwarted occassionaly, it's somewhere around 250,000 tiems a year if I remember right.
_________________________
Member of DaJoGen MMA school under Dave Hagen and Team Chaos fight team under Denver Mangiyatan and Chris Toquero, ran out of Zanshin Martial Arts in Salem Oregon: http://www.zanshinarts.org/Home.aspx,

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#432008 - 04/10/11 01:08 AM Re: Culture of violence: Gun crime in UK [Re: Stormdragon]
fileboy2002 Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 11/13/05
Posts: 999
Loc: Chicago, IL
I've no doubt you and your friends who chose to carry guns are decent, sane people who pose no threat. I wasn't making a blanket condemnation.

The rhetoric of right-to-carry proponents tends to sharply divide people into two categories: "criminals" and "law-abiding citizens." That division is false. Many, many murders are committed by people who are not career criminals.

The rhetoric of right-to-carry proponents also implies criminals have some special, privileged access to guns that law-abiding people do not. That is also false. As I said earlier, the only reason most criminals are able to obtain guns is because those guns were earlier purchased, legally, by law-abiding citizens. Guns enter circulation as a result of legal purchases, and are subsequently stolen, resold, lent out, traded, etc.

Requiring training and thorough background checks for prospective gun buyers is a fine idea. Too often, however, the gun lobby resists any and all efforts to control the distribution of firearms. The NRA has even resisted requiring waiting periods for gun purchases. As a stand up comedian once noted, anyone who says they need a gun RIGHT NOW probably needs a waiting period.

Gun proponents often view all gun laws as steps on a slippery slope. They see even the most modest attempts at gun control as inevitably opening the door to a total bans and even forcible confiscations. That is nonsense.

I cannot imagine how anyone could calculate 250,000 crimes being averted each year as a result of gun ownership. I would be very suspicious of the methodology used to generate that estimate.

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#432009 - 04/10/11 01:52 AM Re: Culture of violence: Gun crime in UK [Re: fileboy2002]
Stormdragon Offline
Who Dares Wins
Professional Poster

Registered: 08/05/04
Posts: 3409
Loc: Salem, OR
"Sure, once in a while they might thwart a robbery attempt. But let's face it, people who feel they need to have a gun on them at all times are often of, shall we say, a certain mindset.

I've met a quite a few of them. They tend to be angry, aggressive, even paranoid." you may not have meant it that way but it reads like a very general blanket statement. Gotta watch those.

You do make good points, I'm not on board with how aggressively some people fight against any gun control at all. I do think we should be careful with how far it's taken, complete bans are going to happen in gradual steps, and people need to watch that, however going too far in the other direction is not the best idea either. I respectfully disagree that it's a mistake to make soem distinction between right to carry permit hodlers and criminals who just have them but of coruse we do have to pay attention to the misuse on both sides. I'll see if I can scrounge up my sources for that figure again.
_________________________
Member of DaJoGen MMA school under Dave Hagen and Team Chaos fight team under Denver Mangiyatan and Chris Toquero, ran out of Zanshin Martial Arts in Salem Oregon: http://www.zanshinarts.org/Home.aspx,

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#432011 - 04/10/11 02:52 AM Re: Culture of violence: Gun crime in UK [Re: Stormdragon]
Stormdragon Offline
Who Dares Wins
Professional Poster

Registered: 08/05/04
Posts: 3409
Loc: Salem, OR
Apparently my numbers were off: "Firearms are used to commit as many as 650,000 crimes each year. But firearms are also used to prevent crimes as many as one million times each year"
http://www.ncpa.org/pub/st176
_________________________
Member of DaJoGen MMA school under Dave Hagen and Team Chaos fight team under Denver Mangiyatan and Chris Toquero, ran out of Zanshin Martial Arts in Salem Oregon: http://www.zanshinarts.org/Home.aspx,

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#432015 - 04/10/11 07:23 AM Re: Culture of violence: Gun crime in UK [Re: fileboy2002]
duanew Offline
Member

Registered: 06/28/08
Posts: 326
Loc: MN
The guns were purchased legally and then stolen. The same can be said about cars, stereos, computers, prescription drugs-it's what criminal do. If your property is stolen is it your fault? If granny is walking back from the drugstore and gets mugged for her oxicontin is granny the source of the problem?
How should we deal with granny? Arrest her for not protecting her scripts? Require granny to hire a bodyguard when she goes to pick up her meds or face prosecution for negligent possession of a controlled substance? Or should we eliminate the production/use of prescription drugs because they can aquired illegally and used unlawfully?
Why do they steal these things? Because they choose to or cannot purchase them legally-which is why they are criminals.
You draw a distinction between criminals and career criminals. How do you define a "career criminal" vs a criminal?
Committing a murder makes you a criminal whether it's your "career" or not-hopefully not.People who do not commit crimes are by definition not criminals. Those who break the law-regardless of the number times-are criminals.
Duane

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