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#431683 - 03/09/11 03:27 AM Adrenaline: How to get familiar with the effects?
ma-observer Offline
Stranger

Registered: 03/09/11
Posts: 2
One of the main problems when confronted with a street self defense situation. Are the effects of adrenaline. Though it prepares body and mind for physical exertion it also disturbs your fine motor skills and may cause those jelly arms and legs. My way of trying to emulate these effects is a 1 minute sprint after which sparring immediately commences.
My question to you is whether you know of any other exercises which may yield the same or a better result or are more efficient.

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#431685 - 03/09/11 10:30 AM Re: Adrenaline: How to get familiar with the effects? [Re: ma-observer]
hope Offline
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Registered: 07/12/09
Posts: 149
Loc: Vancouver, B.C.
IMHO, the sprint might not do the job because your mind will be calm, and you are attributing your physical state to the sprint. How about combining sprint with imagination? Picture an attack, as realistically as possible, or re-live a frightening event before sparring.
_________________________
God grant me a good sword and no use for it. -- Polish proverb

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#431691 - 03/10/11 01:51 PM Re: Adrenaline: How to get familiar with the effects? [Re: hope]
duanew Offline
Member

Registered: 06/28/08
Posts: 326
Loc: MN
Physical exercise CANNOT replicate stress-other than a pounding heart and faster breathing. None of the other associated affects-things slowing down, tunnel vision, auditory exclusion, etc. will occur due to exercise only.
To practice for stress you must induce stress-google it-time constraints, performing in front of others, the "hood" drill, adding noise, differing lighting conditions, etc. can give you what you are looking for.

Duane

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#431693 - 03/11/11 09:42 AM Re: Adrenaline: How to get familiar with the effects? [Re: duanew]
Matakiant Offline
Member

Registered: 02/08/11
Posts: 114
Having experienced it many times in real life I do not think you can emulate it with training.

However doing ''scray'' things that defy survival instinct such as benji jumps, parashooting or anything similar might give you a good idea but it is still different from a confrontation where somebody is willing and wanting to do you harm

I'm sure there are excercises that make you more prepared of course but there is nothing like the real thing.

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#431740 - 03/15/11 04:10 PM Re: Adrenaline: How to get familiar with the effects? [Re: ma-observer]
Ronin1966 Offline
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Registered: 04/26/02
Posts: 3113
Loc: East Coast, United States
Hello:

THe purely physical effects are simple enough to trigger; rapid breating, adrenaline, rapid heart rate, etc. However the tunnel vision, the fear, the mental physiology, the brain chemistry cannot be simulated nearly enough.

What all of us do is called "practice" for a reason. With enough of it you hope to have simulated many difficult things which are very difficult to cope with... but by attempting them, exploring them can be dealt with more effectively

It's "lifetime practice" for excellent reason! We age and things will change, requiring adaptation on our part. To get, and explore your adrenaline response... the invention of Sanchin kata comes to mind ; ) as a wonderful tool to at least ~flip the switches~... start adrenaline coursing through your body.

Jeff

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#432497 - 05/26/11 11:08 AM Re: Adrenaline: How to get familiar with the effects? [Re: Ronin1966]
Ives Offline
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Registered: 04/25/05
Posts: 691
Loc: the Netherlands
Make use of bogu-equipement. Getting into the gear to pair off in a bare-knuckle full-contact bout, that'll get your adrenaline running!!

(I'm skipping quiet some steps you will have to take before bogu-kumite however.)
_________________________
Ives

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#432885 - 06/20/11 04:04 AM Re: Adrenaline: How to get familiar with the effects? [Re: Ives]
Bulletman Offline
Newbie

Registered: 01/06/05
Posts: 21
Loc: Southampton
Hi Guys,

Adrenaline can be our friend if our training is right!! I am part of the UK F.A.S.T Defence team, FAST meaning Fear Adrenaline Stress Training. We are able to give training that is as close to the 'real thing' as possible.
Check out www.fastdefence.com for further details

Chris

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#433083 - 07/05/11 01:19 AM Re: Adrenaline: How to get familiar with the effects? [Re: Bulletman]
47MartialMan Offline
Member

Registered: 11/17/04
Posts: 180
Originally Posted By: Bulletman
Hi Guys,

Adrenaline can be our friend if our training is right!! I am part of the UK F.A.S.T Defence team, FAST meaning Fear Adrenaline Stress Training. We are able to give training that is as close to the 'real thing' as possible.
Check out www.fastdefence.com for further details

Chris


Do you have any short "YouTube" videos of these classes?

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#433097 - 07/05/11 06:42 PM Re: Adrenaline: How to get familiar with the effects? [Re: 47MartialMan]
Bulletman Offline
Newbie

Registered: 01/06/05
Posts: 21
Loc: Southampton
Hi,

Just go on YouTube and search either FAST Defence or Bulletman and you'll find loads of vids!!

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#433282 - 07/15/11 02:23 PM Re: Adrenaline: How to get familiar with the effects? [Re: Bulletman]
Stormdragon Offline
Who Dares Wins
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Registered: 08/05/04
Posts: 3409
Loc: Salem, OR
Spar, spar, spar, spar some more, that's the most effective way to get over the adrenaline dump. Of course you should only start sparrign after you have had 2 or 3 months of training just in technique and drills. Best thing to do is grapple out of bad positions most of the time and give yourself fewer "tools" then your opponent in stand up training.
_________________________
Member of DaJoGen MMA school under Dave Hagen and Team Chaos fight team under Denver Mangiyatan and Chris Toquero, ran out of Zanshin Martial Arts in Salem Oregon: http://www.zanshinarts.org/Home.aspx,

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#433340 - 07/18/11 05:38 AM Re: Adrenaline: How to get familiar with the effects? [Re: Stormdragon]
Bulletman Offline
Newbie

Registered: 01/06/05
Posts: 21
Loc: Southampton
I disagree with this completely!

In any sparring, even MMA or UFC type there are 'rules' in real fights there are no rules. If you are skilled in grappling and you are in a tussle on the ground unlike in the ring/octagon there are no rules to say someone else wont start laying the boot in! You have to be prepared for the unexpected you just dont get that in sparring!

I love martial arts and will practice them until the day I die but they all have limitations unless you practice under adrenal stress and no rules!

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#433341 - 07/18/11 09:37 AM Re: Adrenaline: How to get familiar with the effects? [Re: Bulletman]
MattJ Offline
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Registered: 11/25/04
Posts: 15634
Loc: York PA. USA
What do you mean no rules? All practice has rules. Stromy is correct that contact sparring and rolling is about as good a simulation as one can get to a real fight. Nothing can simulate the adrenal stress of a real encounter.
_________________________
"In case you ever wondered what it's like to be knocked out, it's like waking up from a nightmare only to discover it wasn't a dream." -Forrest Griffin

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#433358 - 07/19/11 08:06 AM Re: Adrenaline: How to get familiar with the effects? [Re: MattJ]
Bulletman Offline
Newbie

Registered: 01/06/05
Posts: 21
Loc: Southampton
In sparring there is a referee or someone to control the fight so you have to abide by the rules set.
Out on the street anything can happen, when sparring you know your opponent isn't gonna pull a blade or get some of his mates to join in!
To get as close to the real thing you have to drill pre-emptive strikes and work on the pre-amble that happens before the physical fight is on!
These are just my views but also shared by some of the best self protection experts in the world!

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#433359 - 07/19/11 09:40 AM Re: Adrenaline: How to get familiar with the effects? [Re: Bulletman]
iaibear Offline
Veteran

Registered: 08/24/05
Posts: 1304
Loc: upstate New York
There is a lot to be said for the "woof".

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#433363 - 07/19/11 02:29 PM Re: Adrenaline: How to get familiar with the effects? [Re: Bulletman]
MattJ Offline
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Registered: 11/25/04
Posts: 15634
Loc: York PA. USA
Originally Posted By: Bulletman
In sparring there is a referee or someone to control the fight so you have to abide by the rules set.
Out on the street anything can happen, when sparring you know your opponent isn't gonna pull a blade or get some of his mates to join in!


But we don't practice in the street, do we? Rules everywhere. And there's no saying that you can't introduce weapons or multiples in sparring. I have done that before.

Quote:
To get as close to the real thing you have to drill pre-emptive strikes and work on the pre-amble that happens before the physical fight is on!
These are just my views but also shared by some of the best self protection experts in the world!


I guess I'm not seeing how adding pre-emptive strikes or whatever will increase the adrenaline compared to actually sparring.
_________________________
"In case you ever wondered what it's like to be knocked out, it's like waking up from a nightmare only to discover it wasn't a dream." -Forrest Griffin

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#433366 - 07/20/11 03:11 AM Re: Adrenaline: How to get familiar with the effects? [Re: MattJ]
Bulletman Offline
Newbie

Registered: 01/06/05
Posts: 21
Loc: Southampton
To fully understand what I'm trying to get at you need to look up www.fastdefense.com Bill Kipp is the founder and my trainer. If you ever get the chance to get on a FAST course do it! It benefits anyone who attends one whether it be a seasoned martial artist or someone with no prior experience.

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#433367 - 07/20/11 03:19 AM Re: Adrenaline: How to get familiar with the effects? [Re: iaibear]
Bulletman Offline
Newbie

Registered: 01/06/05
Posts: 21
Loc: Southampton
Originally Posted By: iaibear
There is a lot to be said for the "woof".


I see you are familiar with FAST!! wink

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#433368 - 07/20/11 07:25 AM Re: Adrenaline: How to get familiar with the effects? [Re: Bulletman]
iaibear Offline
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Registered: 08/24/05
Posts: 1304
Loc: upstate New York
For years I have been tempted to visit Colorado.

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#433370 - 07/20/11 11:11 AM Re: Adrenaline: How to get familiar with the effects? [Re: iaibear]
Bulletman Offline
Newbie

Registered: 01/06/05
Posts: 21
Loc: Southampton
Originally Posted By: iaibear
For years I have been tempted to visit Colorado.


I trained with Bill at RMCAT back in 2004 to be a FAST Instructor. You dont have to go to Colorado to do a course, Bill has teams all over the US so if you are interested e.mail him! smile

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#433371 - 07/20/11 11:49 AM Re: Adrenaline: How to get familiar with the effects? [Re: Bulletman]
iaibear Offline
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Registered: 08/24/05
Posts: 1304
Loc: upstate New York
Thanks for the heads up.

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#433376 - 07/20/11 05:52 PM Re: Adrenaline: How to get familiar with the effects? [Re: ma-observer]
Myranda Offline
Newbie

Registered: 07/20/11
Posts: 8
Originally Posted By: ma-observer
One of the main problems when confronted with a street self defense situation. Are the effects of adrenaline. Though it prepares body and mind for physical exertion it also disturbs your fine motor skills and may cause those jelly arms and legs. My way of trying to emulate these effects is a 1 minute sprint after which sparring immediately commences.
My question to you is whether you know of any other exercises which may yield the same or a better result or are more efficient.


Sprinting will get adrenaline pumping, but in a Fight or Flight situation it's a LOT of adrenaline all at once. Generally it's very difficult to simulate this.

Sparring is good - in the beginning, but once you get used to sparring with rules the Fight or Flight is lessened... unless you glove up with someone like Mike Tyson.

So instead of trying to similate it, look for methods of minimizing the effect - one of my instructors also works door security at night clubs so has had a lot of experience in such situations - keep the legs moving a little shifting weight from one to the other, you might look like you need to pee, but your knees wont be shaking, keep your hands moving he rubs his hands like you might if you were cold... adrenaline wobbles come mostly when limbs are static, so it helps quite a bit.

Other than that, train hard, all the time o stuff becomes instinct and that can help too.
_________________________
Hullo!
I do Wing Chun, BJJ, Muay Thai, and a little Submission Wrestling.

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#433411 - 07/22/11 08:52 PM Re: Adrenaline: How to get familiar with the effects? [Re: Myranda]
duanew Offline
Member

Registered: 06/28/08
Posts: 326
Loc: MN
Originally Posted By: Myranda
Sprinting will get adrenaline pumping, but in a Fight or Flight situation it's a LOT of adrenaline all at once. G enerally it's very difficult to simulate this.

Physical exertion WILL NOT cause the effects of stress-unless you are stressed by physical exertion. You may get trembling from muscle fatigue,you will get rapid heart rate but it will not induce-tunnel vision, auditory exclusion, tachypsychia, etc. In order to train under stress you have to be stressed.

Duane

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#433418 - 07/23/11 03:49 PM Re: Adrenaline: How to get familiar with the effects? [Re: duanew]
Kimo2007 Offline
Veteran

Registered: 03/31/07
Posts: 1057
I think some testing I've done and more that I've seen does a nice job (as good as any in a civilian setting can).

Never been through it but elite military units are able to really put the stress level into their training. A little fear goes a long way.
_________________________
Undefeated in all of Asia!

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#433424 - 07/24/11 12:50 AM Re: Adrenaline: How to get familiar with the effects? [Re: Kimo2007]
hope Offline
Member

Registered: 07/12/09
Posts: 149
Loc: Vancouver, B.C.
Has anyone else noticed that the stress/fear of an encounter feels different if you EXPECT something negative to happen or if something negative has ALREADY happened?

Eg. you get a threat with intent -- "I'm going to kill you" (or in the dojo "I'm going to take you down") vs. someone has already done you some physical damage and you think it may be bad.

For me the latter is harder to deal with. The former gives me strength (oh no you're not) and the latter takes it away -- Duane, you can get the tunnel vision, auditory exclusion, tachypsychia, etc -- this is one reason why training is useful (with luck, never get really serious damage while training, but approximations, which help you not to overestimate a later injury).


Edited by hope (07/24/11 01:05 AM)
_________________________
God grant me a good sword and no use for it. -- Polish proverb

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#433427 - 07/24/11 07:42 AM Re: Adrenaline: How to get familiar with the effects? [Re: hope]
duanew Offline
Member

Registered: 06/28/08
Posts: 326
Loc: MN
Duane, you can get the tunnel vision, auditory exclusion, tachypsychia, etc --

From stress NOT physical exertion alone...right?

Duane

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#433431 - 07/24/11 12:42 PM Re: Adrenaline: How to get familiar with the effects? [Re: duanew]
hope Offline
Member

Registered: 07/12/09
Posts: 149
Loc: Vancouver, B.C.
Yes, right. What I'm saying is that training can bring you to that level of stress at times.
_________________________
God grant me a good sword and no use for it. -- Polish proverb

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#433496 - 08/02/11 12:22 AM Re: Adrenaline: How to get familiar with the effects? [Re: hope]
47MartialMan Offline
Member

Registered: 11/17/04
Posts: 180
Training can never get you to a level of stress per par as actual fighting

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#433504 - 08/02/11 05:02 PM Re: Adrenaline: How to get familiar with the effects? [Re: 47MartialMan]
gojuman59 Offline
Member

Registered: 04/08/11
Posts: 223
Loc: Missouri
Originally Posted By: 47MartialMan
Training can never get you to a level of stress per par as actual fighting


I agree 100% When you take a big hit in training most likely your opponent will give you time if your bell is rung. On the street your opponent will see you this way and wade on in to finish you off.Big difference.

Mark

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#433506 - 08/02/11 07:32 PM Re: Adrenaline: How to get familiar with the effects? [Re: gojuman59]
47MartialMan Offline
Member

Registered: 11/17/04
Posts: 180
Originally Posted By: gojuman59
Originally Posted By: 47MartialMan
Training can never get you to a level of stress per par as actual fighting


I agree 100% When you take a big hit in training most likely your opponent will give you time if your bell is rung. On the street your opponent will see you this way and wade on in to finish you off.Big difference.

Mark


Perhaps a pressure tested method like ring fights can come close.

MMA/MT/Boxing

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#434040 - 10/21/11 03:45 AM Re: Adrenaline: How to get familiar with the effects? [Re: Stormdragon]
solobest Offline
Stranger

Registered: 08/09/11
Posts: 1
you can get over it in a few seconds.your instinct for survival is the key.However making sparring part of you is the most effective way i know to get rid of or get familiar with the effects of adrenaline.
solomon

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#434045 - 10/23/11 08:27 PM Re: Adrenaline: How to get familiar with the effects? [Re: solobest]
47MartialMan Offline
Member

Registered: 11/17/04
Posts: 180
Scientists would disagree bout humans having instincts

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#434047 - 10/24/11 08:57 PM Re: Adrenaline: How to get familiar with the effects? [Re: 47MartialMan]
duanew Offline
Member

Registered: 06/28/08
Posts: 326
Loc: MN
There are instinctual responses to stress...so what do you mean?

Duane

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#434541 - 01/27/12 01:10 PM Re: Adrenaline: How to get familiar with the effects? [Re: Bulletman]
Stormdragon Offline
Who Dares Wins
Professional Poster

Registered: 08/05/04
Posts: 3409
Loc: Salem, OR
Originally Posted By: Bulletman
I disagree with this completely!

In any sparring, even MMA or UFC type there are 'rules' in real fights there are no rules. If you are skilled in grappling and you are in a tussle on the ground unlike in the ring/octagon there are no rules to say someone else wont start laying the boot in! You have to be prepared for the unexpected you just dont get that in sparring!

I love martial arts and will practice them until the day I die but they all have limitations unless you practice under adrenal stress and no rules!


So are you saying you practice full on with no rules? I doubt that. Because unless you do nothing you do will somehow be better. ALL practice has rules. I'm familiar with the Bulletman, FAST stuff, having people scream and yell at you is great, adding in odd environmental conditions is great too, and you can make that a part of sparring/rolling for self defense, on the other hand beating on a dude in a thick heavy suit with restricted movements is not somehow superiors to actual sparring. And I don't care how many rules there are, or who is reffing, when you are sparring, really sparring you will deal with some adrenaline for awhile and learn to handle adrenaline well because someone is HITTING YOU FOR REAL. I've seen guys get knocked out and choked out more than once in sparring and rolling, I've even been knocked out once or twice. That is scary to face. I don't need someone to bite me and pull my hair to experience an adrenaline rush in sparring, and learn to overcome that (as well as the adrenaline rush that comes with competition and is much more pronounced than in practice). Psychologically, that adrenaline dumb that comes in competition or your first day doing hard sparring with a good fighter is really no different at all than what is experienced in a street fight. the only difference is environmental conditions which an be adjusted around the sparring session. Have you been in the cage, or competed n some form of NHB, submission grappling, kickboxing, or other similar competition? If not how would you know what that feels like and how close the feeling is to the adrenaline dump faced in a street fight? Now, remember, this thread is about the adrenaline not specific techniques to watch out for on the street vs. practice.

Were you aware that in the Army our close combat system is based entirely around BJJ and kickboxing, and the primary training methods are drilling and sparring/rolling? There's a reason for that (i.e. it works). Now we add unique scenarios like throwing in a training knife, or using our skills while going through rooms, but the concept of force on force training between two people is still there. We don't train by beating on a guy with a thick suit and a massive puffy hat on who acts out street scenarios and provides half assed pushes and grabs (which is what I've seen from all of the FAST stuff). I'm sure that stuff doesn't hurt any but it's not really the optimal way to train honestly. Some of that acting out of tense conflicts as far as the psychological phase is concerned can be good sure, but to brush off sparring/rolling because it doesn't involve "no rules" is absurd when we both know you don't train with no rules agaisnt someone really trying to hurt you and the bulletman fighting stuff is kind of the estranged 3rd cousin twice removed of sparring, it's just a weaker version of it. Now, the surprise part is an issue, but you can't really do much to actually train for that. And in that case awareness and avoidance comes into play.


Edited by Stormdragon (01/27/12 01:48 PM)
_________________________
Member of DaJoGen MMA school under Dave Hagen and Team Chaos fight team under Denver Mangiyatan and Chris Toquero, ran out of Zanshin Martial Arts in Salem Oregon: http://www.zanshinarts.org/Home.aspx,

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#434542 - 01/27/12 01:16 PM Re: Adrenaline: How to get familiar with the effects? [Re: 47MartialMan]
Stormdragon Offline
Who Dares Wins
Professional Poster

Registered: 08/05/04
Posts: 3409
Loc: Salem, OR
Originally Posted By: 47MartialMan
Scientists would disagree bout humans having instincts


No they wouldn't, ask Stephen Pinker. It's pretty well established that we are not blank slates upon birth but a combination of genetic instincts (pre-wiring) and learning.
_________________________
Member of DaJoGen MMA school under Dave Hagen and Team Chaos fight team under Denver Mangiyatan and Chris Toquero, ran out of Zanshin Martial Arts in Salem Oregon: http://www.zanshinarts.org/Home.aspx,

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#434543 - 01/27/12 01:22 PM Re: Adrenaline: How to get familiar with the effects? [Re: gojuman59]
Stormdragon Offline
Who Dares Wins
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Registered: 08/05/04
Posts: 3409
Loc: Salem, OR
Originally Posted By: gojuman59
Originally Posted By: 47MartialMan
Training can never get you to a level of stress per par as actual fighting


I agree 100% When you take a big hit in training most likely your opponent will give you time if your bell is rung. On the street your opponent will see you this way and wade on in to finish you off.Big difference.

Mark


In boxing maybe, but in mma we're taught when we have our training partner stunned to keep coming and cover them but dial the power way way down while still keeping the pace and motion (or just clinch and transition to grappling) and so the aggressor learns to keep attacking a hurt opponent and the other guy learns to put up a defense and stay calm when they are hurt. Those instincts will still largely be there on the street because that training wires neural connections (what people call instincts) to do that without thinking.
_________________________
Member of DaJoGen MMA school under Dave Hagen and Team Chaos fight team under Denver Mangiyatan and Chris Toquero, ran out of Zanshin Martial Arts in Salem Oregon: http://www.zanshinarts.org/Home.aspx,

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#434554 - 01/29/12 12:28 PM Re: Adrenaline: How to get familiar with the effects? [Re: Stormdragon]
47MartialMan Offline
Member

Registered: 11/17/04
Posts: 180
Doing things without "so call thinking" is not a instinct.

When we are taught how to drive, after practice, we can operate a vehicle "without thinking" i.e. braking, acceleration, signaling...etc..

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#434574 - 01/31/12 03:52 PM Re: Adrenaline: How to get familiar with the effects? [Re: 47MartialMan]
Stormdragon Offline
Who Dares Wins
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Registered: 08/05/04
Posts: 3409
Loc: Salem, OR
While yes that's technically true it's what most people know actions that don't require thinking as so it's a convenient term. And for the record we do have instincts, we do have in-born behavioral traits. No reputable psychologist in the world would tell you we're a blank slate anymore that hasn't been a well accepted idea since B.F. Skinner was alive and active.

Here's a resource on that by Stephen Pinker, a well-respected researcher: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Blank_Slate also see twin studies. Our behavior is a combination of nature AND nurture, not one or the other.


Edited by Stormdragon (01/31/12 04:28 PM)
_________________________
Member of DaJoGen MMA school under Dave Hagen and Team Chaos fight team under Denver Mangiyatan and Chris Toquero, ran out of Zanshin Martial Arts in Salem Oregon: http://www.zanshinarts.org/Home.aspx,

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#434580 - 02/01/12 10:13 AM Re: Adrenaline: How to get familiar with the effects? [Re: Stormdragon]
iaibear Offline
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Registered: 08/24/05
Posts: 1304
Loc: upstate New York
I've always called it "motor memory"

Had a great example two nights ago in Aikido class.
Sensei set up a randori. The "big guys" were called onto the floor. And then I was, too, and told I was "up".

I have since heard I did rather well. I do not remember a bit of it. Motor Memory the whole way.


Edited by iaibear (02/01/12 10:21 AM)
Edit Reason: needed an example

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#434585 - 02/01/12 10:58 PM Re: Adrenaline: How to get familiar with the effects? [Re: iaibear]
Stormdragon Offline
Who Dares Wins
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I suppose the most accurate term would be conditioned responses. But I'd rather just call them instincts.
_________________________
Member of DaJoGen MMA school under Dave Hagen and Team Chaos fight team under Denver Mangiyatan and Chris Toquero, ran out of Zanshin Martial Arts in Salem Oregon: http://www.zanshinarts.org/Home.aspx,

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#434588 - 02/02/12 09:33 AM Re: Adrenaline: How to get familiar with the effects? [Re: Stormdragon]
iaibear Offline
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Shouldn't I be able to remember "conditioned responses"?

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#434606 - 02/08/12 11:09 PM Re: Adrenaline: How to get familiar with the effects? [Re: iaibear]
hope Offline
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If it's a response you've automated, you don't have to pay conscious attention to it while you do it. You can aim your attention at other things or thoughts. Then, you don't remember the automated things you did unless they were interrupted and you had to direct conscious attention to the situation. Do you remember tying your shoes unless a lace breaks?
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#434611 - 02/10/12 04:56 AM Re: Adrenaline: How to get familiar with the effects? [Re: hope]
duanew Offline
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There are no rules in a street fight. I don't agree. There are explicit rules-statutes regarding use of force and assault. There are implicit rules- each participant has a level of harm in which they are willing to inflict based on the situation and circumstance. The problem comes in when you don't know what your "opponent" will do. Will he fight by your schema?
I take a punch at you with the expectation that this will be a fist fight. In most cases I will be correct. Things may not work out for me if you pull a knife, or your friends decide to join in.
Break the explicit rules and you can get in trouble with the law and be penalized by the judge long after the "match" is over.
The implicit rules are an unknown. Is your opponent a reasonably well adjusted moral human being, a sociopath or something in between?
So a street fight is void of written rules or pre-arranged agreed upon rules but every participant has their own set of rules-that's what makes them dangerous.
Add alcohol, drugs or fear and those boundries can shift.
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#434628 - 02/15/12 08:52 AM Re: Adrenaline: How to get familiar with the effects? [Re: hope]
iaibear Offline
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Sometimes it is annoying. In Aikido class last week I have been told I did quite well as the person "up" in randori. I wish I could remember what I did!
Maybe it's a "senior moment".

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#434662 - 02/23/12 11:32 PM Re: Adrenaline: How to get familiar with the effects? [Re: iaibear]
Stormdragon Offline
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Originally Posted By: iaibear
Shouldn't I be able to remember "conditioned responses"?


What's your point? The whole idea with that is being able to act fast without hesitation or having to think through it (like being able to speak fluently). Now, being able to do that doesn't always mean you won't remember it later, that may or may not be the case.
Some guys can have a ball randomly thrown at them at a high rate of speed and catch it without thinking in the same manner, yet remember that later. Some of you guys really need to take a psychology class, there's a lot of misconceptions here on how the brain works. Unless you have brain damage everything you do get's stored as memory, either short term or long term, and can be drawn back, it just takes the right trigger for some things.


Edited by Stormdragon (02/23/12 11:38 PM)
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#434663 - 02/23/12 11:35 PM Re: Adrenaline: How to get familiar with the effects? [Re: duanew]
Stormdragon Offline
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Originally Posted By: duanew
There are no rules in a street fight. I don't agree. There are explicit rules-statutes regarding use of force and assault. There are implicit rules- each participant has a level of harm in which they are willing to inflict based on the situation and circumstance. The problem comes in when you don't know what your "opponent" will do. Will he fight by your schema?
I take a punch at you with the expectation that this will be a fist fight. In most cases I will be correct. Things may not work out for me if you pull a knife, or your friends decide to join in.
Break the explicit rules and you can get in trouble with the law and be penalized by the judge long after the "match" is over.
The implicit rules are an unknown. Is your opponent a reasonably well adjusted moral human being, a sociopath or something in between?
So a street fight is void of written rules or pre-arranged agreed upon rules but every participant has their own set of rules-that's what makes them dangerous.
Add alcohol, drugs or fear and those boundries can shift.


So you train with no rules? You must have trouble finding training partners. In any case, just because there's no rules in a street fight, once again, doesn't mean you can't reproduce a very similar adrenaline effect in training, that's just absurd.
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#434664 - 02/24/12 05:26 AM Re: Adrenaline: How to get familiar with the effects? [Re: Stormdragon]
duanew Offline
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Originally Posted By: Stormdragon
[quote=duanew]So you train with no rules? You must have trouble finding training partners. In any case, just because there's no rules in a street fight, once again, doesn't mean you can't reproduce a very similar adrenaline effect in training, that's just absurd.


Huh? Don't know how you could have gotten that out of what I wrote, perhaps the "Queen of Battle" is just looking for a fight? I never said anything about how I train, or the absurdity of trying to get the adrenal effects of a fight in training. In fact, if you were to read my previous posts here and in other threads you would know that I advocate it. If you re-read my previous post I was disagreeing with the saying, "There are no rules in a street fight."
My apologies your highness,
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#434666 - 02/24/12 05:50 AM Re: Adrenaline: How to get familiar with the effects? [Re: Stormdragon]
duanew Offline
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[quote=Stormdragon Some of you guys really need to take a psychology class, there's a lot of misconceptions here on how the brain works. Unless you have brain damage everything you do get's stored as memory, either short term or long term, and can be drawn back, it just takes the right trigger for some things. [/quote]

Google Force Science Research Institute, go to the search function, type in memory under stress and you will be able to read research by doctors of psychology who do not agree with you.
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#434667 - 02/24/12 05:54 AM Re: Adrenaline: How to get familiar with the effects? [Re: duanew]
Stormdragon Offline
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Originally Posted By: duanew
Originally Posted By: Stormdragon
[quote=duanew]So you train with no rules? You must have trouble finding training partners. In any case, just because there's no rules in a street fight, once again, doesn't mean you can't reproduce a very similar adrenaline effect in training, that's just absurd.


Huh? Don't know how you could have gotten that out of what I wrote, perhaps the "Queen of Battle" is just looking for a fight? I never said anything about how I train, or the absurdity of trying to get the adrenal effects of a fight in training. In fact, if you were to read my previous posts here and in other threads you would know that I advocate it. If you re-read my previous post I was disagreeing with the saying, "There are no rules in a street fight."
My apologies your highness,


Woops, I actually totally missed the second sentence. And the Queen of Battle thing is a military reference, it has absolutely nothing to do with martial arts or arrogance. That said yes you can get at the least some approximation of the adrenal effects of a fight in training, which is better than none at all. It depends on the training methods (and also level of experience eventually you stop getting that as you get used to things).
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#434668 - 02/24/12 06:02 AM Re: Adrenaline: How to get familiar with the effects? [Re: duanew]
Stormdragon Offline
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Originally Posted By: duanew
[quote=Stormdragon Some of you guys really need to take a psychology class, there's a lot of misconceptions here on how the brain works. Unless you have brain damage everything you do get's stored as memory, either short term or long term, and can be drawn back, it just takes the right trigger for some things.


Google Force Science Research Institute, go to the search function, type in memory under stress and you will be able to read research by doctors of psychology who do not agree with you. [/quote]

http://www.rbta.net/forum/showthread.php...earch&p=247 nowhere does that (from your recommendation) say that actions taken in a high pressured situation won't be remembered, but that you're more likely to remember things about the attacker and what they did. And one statement actually backs up something I said about having the right triggers "It’s interesting to note that with the exception of one officer, those involved in the groups that conferred said they did not learn “new” information about the incident during their discussions. Rather, it seemed, latent memories they had of the incident were “refreshed” and brought to the surface by the conferencing."

So no they don't "disagree" with me, at least not based on that article.
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#434674 - 02/24/12 02:48 PM Re: Adrenaline: How to get familiar with the effects? [Re: Stormdragon]
duanew Offline
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-It also says:
The average officer in the experiment was 4 times more likely to remember “external” elements associated with the threat (the type of weapon presented, the suspect’s behavior, etc.) than “internal” elements (such as an awareness of his/her own thoughts and physical behavior).
-this narrow focus simultaneously caused them to “miss other items about the scene that may later turn out to be important, and impaired their ability to provide full and complete reports about the incident
-Officers who were interviewed, on the other hand, had error rates that were “very high,” averaging more than 5 mistaken memories apiece in their accounts of what happened
Dr. Lewinski and Dr. Alexis Artwohl and others also make the following points-
The mind is not a recorder.
Memory is effected by previous experience and emotion.
Memory cannot be trusted to be accurate because of these influences.
Past experience can cause false memory.
The mind records things in order of importance not occurance.
So stress can have a detrimental effect on memory in a undamaged brain.

Good training will result in automatic bahavior which the subject will not have any memory of.
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#434675 - 02/24/12 03:00 PM Re: Adrenaline: How to get familiar with the effects? [Re: duanew]
duanew Offline
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http://www.forcescience.org/articles/Memory&TheLaw.pdf
Long 50 pages but interesting paper on memory
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#434676 - 02/24/12 03:05 PM Re: Adrenaline: How to get familiar with the effects? [Re: duanew]
iaibear Offline
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In that randori I mentioned, I do remember seeing at least five individuals coming at me repeatedly, one at a time with no pause between. But for the life of me, I am unable to resurrect a single countermove on my part. I was told later people were tumbling in all directions.
That was a set of memories I sure wish I could have kept first hand.


Edited by iaibear (02/24/12 03:43 PM)
Edit Reason: clarification

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#434677 - 02/24/12 08:58 PM Re: Adrenaline: How to get familiar with the effects? [Re: duanew]
Stormdragon Offline
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Originally Posted By: duanew
-It also says:
The average officer in the experiment was 4 times more likely to remember “external” elements associated with the threat (the type of weapon presented, the suspect’s behavior, etc.) than “internal” elements (such as an awareness of his/her own thoughts and physical behavior).
-this narrow focus simultaneously caused them to “miss other items about the scene that may later turn out to be important, and impaired their ability to provide full and complete reports about the incident
-Officers who were interviewed, on the other hand, had error rates that were “very high,” averaging more than 5 mistaken memories apiece in their accounts of what happened
Dr. Lewinski and Dr. Alexis Artwohl and others also make the following points-
The mind is not a recorder.
Memory is effected by previous experience and emotion.
Memory cannot be trusted to be accurate because of these influences.
Past experience can cause false memory.
The mind records things in order of importance not occurance.
So stress can have a detrimental effect on memory in a undamaged brain.

Good training will result in automatic bahavior which the subject will not have any memory of.


According to the quote I gave though, it indicates that memories like that can be brought back up through talkign about the incident with others there. Nowhere do they say that there will be behavior that you won't have memory of nor be able to somehow retrieve, though initially external factors are much much easier to remember.
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#434678 - 02/24/12 09:00 PM Re: Adrenaline: How to get familiar with the effects? [Re: Stormdragon]
Stormdragon Offline
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As far as I can tell it's just saying that the focus points can strongly effect memory retrieval and what comes back easiest. Now, you probably would never be able to break down step by step your physical movements, but knowledge of what you did overall I firmly believe can be retrieved eventually.
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#434693 - 02/28/12 10:42 PM Re: Adrenaline: How to get familiar with the effects? [Re: Stormdragon]
47MartialMan Offline
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Originally Posted By: Stormdragon
While yes that's technically true it's what most people know actions that don't require thinking as so it's a convenient term. And for the record we do have instincts, we do have in-born behavioral traits. No reputable psychologist in the world would tell you we're a blank slate anymore that hasn't been a well accepted idea since B.F. Skinner was alive and active.

Here's a resource on that by Stephen Pinker, a well-respected researcher: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Blank_Slate also see twin studies. Our behavior is a combination of nature AND nurture, not one or the other.


This is bullocks...for every one reference about humans "having" instincts, there is one to refute

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#434696 - 02/29/12 03:50 AM Re: Adrenaline: How to get familiar with the effects? [Re: 47MartialMan]
Leo_E_49 Offline
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Humans may not have instincts per-se but regardless of whether we do or not, we benefit from motor-learning (a.k.a muscle memory) which conditions automatic responses reducing movement time and improving prediction and anticipation of the required response based on familiarity with the stimuli. It's a pretty well researched and accepted field of psychology.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motor_learning


Edited by Leo_E_49 (02/29/12 03:52 AM)
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#434697 - 02/29/12 04:56 AM Re: Adrenaline: How to get familiar with the effects? [Re: Leo_E_49]
duanew Offline
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To make your point you cite wikepedia?
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#434699 - 02/29/12 03:24 PM Re: Adrenaline: How to get familiar with the effects? [Re: duanew]
iaibear Offline
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How about those of us who know from experience?

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#434700 - 02/29/12 06:33 PM Re: Adrenaline: How to get familiar with the effects? [Re: iaibear]
duanew Offline
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The person with experience is never at the mercy of the person with a theory.
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#434702 - 03/01/12 02:41 AM Re: Adrenaline: How to get familiar with the effects? [Re: duanew]
Leo_E_49 Offline
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Originally Posted By: duanew
To make your point you cite wikepedia?


You know what, reading back through the thread I'm out of my depth on this one. I retract my statement.

I'm curious though as to what the two sides of the argument are in this thread, could you clarify for me? You appear to be talking about memory under stress when the topic started out with conditioned and/or instinctual responses.

If we're discussing how to get familiar with the effects of adrenaline for the purposes of self defence, how is memory of the stressful incident after the fact related to this training? Perhaps in terms of identifying your assailants?

What is your stance on the instinctual response? Does it exist? Can it be improved through training? Other people have more clearly stated their opinions on these issues.

I believe the question here is not really whether instincts exist or not, but what kind of prior training (if any) can benefit us during in a high adrenaline situation.


Edited by Leo_E_49 (03/01/12 03:52 AM)
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#434703 - 03/01/12 03:30 AM Re: Adrenaline: How to get familiar with the effects? [Re: Leo_E_49]
Leo_E_49 Offline
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I was reading the very interesting website you posted duanew, particularly "Biomechanics of Lethal Force Encounters - Officer Movements". It's very similar to some of the research I've read in human computer interaction, particularly to do with learned user interfaces. This website is a treasure trove. smile

Anyway, it has this relevant finding:
"It is significant however that one of the fastest draws and the slowest draws occurred from a level 3 duty holster and were directly linked to the amount of practice the officer had with that holster ... the greatest factor in the speed of the draw is the amount of time the officer spends practicing with that holster."

It appears that from a biomechanical perspective, practice in a non-stressful environment will result in improvement which I think they imply can be used in a stressful environment (unless the conclusions drawn in the article are purely academic).

""A Survey of the Research on Human Factors Related to Lethal Force Encounters: Implications for Law Enforcement Training, Tactics, and Testimony" is also an interesting read, particularly the sections on Response Times and Implications for Training and Tactics, which will probably affect my own training in future if I spend time on self defence.

Quoting: "Realistic, complex scenario-based training that includes the full range of physical and mental tasks an officer is required to perform in a deadly confrontation, up to and including the recall and reporting of critical scenario details, is essential to improving an officer’s performance and resiliency following such encounters. Repetition, then, further increases motor memory and mental processing as well as provides for positive practice of these critical perishable skills. Realistic training, 144 Law Enforcement Executive Forum • 2008 • 8(4) which includes the unexpected, also reduces an officer’s tendency to overanticipate and preemptively react with a pre-programmed response when a novel response may be more appropriate, thereby enhancing mental, interpersonal, and physical adaptability (U.S. Army Research Institute for the Behavioral and Social Sciences, 2005)."

It appears that there may be some benefit to reality based scenarios and removing conditioned responses, although reaction times suffer. I guess the question is, for a civilian, are reaction times more important than novel thought?

However they do point out that "Repetition increases motor memory, mental processing, and intuitive decision making under stress.", indicating that training for motor memory is beneficial under stress.

Thanks for the website duanew, it's definitely going in my self defence reading list.


Edited by Leo_E_49 (03/01/12 03:49 AM)
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#434704 - 03/01/12 07:33 AM Re: Adrenaline: How to get familiar with the effects? [Re: Leo_E_49]
duanew Offline
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Originally Posted By: Leo_E_49
Originally Posted By: duanew
To make your point you cite wikepedia?


You know what, reading back through the thread I'm out of my depth on this one. I retract my statement.

I'm curious though as to what the two sides of the argument are in this thread, could you clarify for me? You appear to be talking about memory under stress when the topic started out with conditioned and/or instinctual responses.

If we're discussing how to get familiar with the effects of adrenaline for the purposes of self defence, how is memory of the stressful incident after the fact related to this training? Perhaps in terms of identifying your assailants?

What is your stance on the instinctual response? Does it exist? Can it be improved through training? Other people have more clearly stated their opinions on these issues.

I believe the question here is not really whether instincts exist or not, but what kind of prior training (if any) can benefit us during in a high adrenaline situation.


1. Some one else stated the ideas about stress and memory and I put up the website on the scientific research.
2. All animals have instinctual responses. Flinch Response, startle response, Body Alarm response-all encoded in the DNA and stored in the mid brain-where you get your survival/stress responses Fight Flight Flee Submit and Posture.
3. Another good read is, On Combat by Pulitzer Prize nominated author, Lt. Col. Dave Grossman. I had the honor of serving on the Advisory Board of the book. Also getting ready to do some research with Dr. Lewinski next fall on psychomotor skills and deterioration over time. Specifically how soon do arm bar type skills and shooting skills for police become less effective and eventually ineffective over time without practice.
4. Also just finished doing research on movement time to close with an opponent for a gun disarm vs draw time research.
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#434705 - 03/01/12 04:26 PM Re: Adrenaline: How to get familiar with the effects? [Re: duanew]
hope Offline
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Duane said, "Also getting ready to do some research with Dr. Lewinski next fall on psychomotor skills and deterioration over time. Specifically how soon do arm bar type skills and shooting skills for police become less effective and eventually ineffective over time without practice."

Please post about this one while you're doing it, if possible :-). Interesting to see how this research progresses, and what problems you encounter doing it. For example, are you studying retired police officers, or ones who have quit the force at a younger age and so don't practice any more, or...?
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#434706 - 03/01/12 08:14 PM Re: Adrenaline: How to get familiar with the effects? [Re: hope]
duanew Offline
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If we get the study done it will be with the students in my college after DT and Firearms class. Another research project done by Rose showed that cops who learned the straight arm bar three months later couldn't do it against resistive subject and 6 months later could tell you how to do it but couldn't perform it.
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#434707 - 03/01/12 09:35 PM Re: Adrenaline: How to get familiar with the effects? [Re: duanew]
hope Offline
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Thank you for your answer above.

If you don't mind continued questions, how long will the students be in training, compared with the time out of training afterward (eg. they train for 3 weeks, and then 3 months later get tested?). Also, will they sign agreements saying they won't practice after training, or will you ask how much they practiced?

Do you mind sharing the Rose reference, because I have similar questions about his group of cops?


Edited by hope (03/01/12 09:36 PM)
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#434708 - 03/01/12 09:39 PM Re: Adrenaline: How to get familiar with the effects? [Re: hope]
47MartialMan Offline
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Humans are not animals...flinch-reflex responses are not instinct

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#434710 - 03/02/12 02:17 AM Re: Adrenaline: How to get familiar with the effects? [Re: 47MartialMan]
Stormdragon Offline
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Originally Posted By: 47MartialMan
Originally Posted By: Stormdragon
While yes that's technically true it's what most people know actions that don't require thinking as so it's a convenient term. And for the record we do have instincts, we do have in-born behavioral traits. No reputable psychologist in the world would tell you we're a blank slate anymore that hasn't been a well accepted idea since B.F. Skinner was alive and active.

Here's a resource on that by Stephen Pinker, a well-respected researcher: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Blank_Slate also see twin studies. Our behavior is a combination of nature AND nurture, not one or the other.


This is bullocks...for every one reference about humans "having" instincts, there is one to refute


Um no sorry dude I'm minoring in psychology, I know what the latest research says, that's what's being taught, it's the consensus among psychologists that genetics is a source for some of our behavior. I actually cited an external source, what do you have to refute my claims with exactly? Twin studies proves that there's something to humans having instincts. We have lots of instincts, instincts for territoriality, instincts for protecting our offspring, natural fear of certain things. http://www.zo.utexas.edu/courses/Thoc/HumanInstincts.pdf you're arguing with the top psychologists of the world.
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#434711 - 03/02/12 02:20 AM Re: Adrenaline: How to get familiar with the effects? [Re: duanew]
Stormdragon Offline
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Originally Posted By: duanew
To make your point you cite wikepedia?


Yes because A. I have the book cited in that wikipedia article so I know what it says and B. you can find the sources at the bottom. Wikipedia is fine for these kinds of things, I'm not writing a college paper here. Wikipedia tends to get fixed extremely quickly when people put BS down.
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#434712 - 03/02/12 02:25 AM Re: Adrenaline: How to get familiar with the effects? [Re: 47MartialMan]
Stormdragon Offline
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Originally Posted By: 47MartialMan
Humans are not animals...flinch-reflex responses are not instinct


Yes we are and yes they are by any technical definition. Dictionary definition of instinct: "An innate, typically fixed pattern of behavior in animals in response to certain stimuli" that's exactly what flinch-responses are, you're making up your own definitions for things.

LEO- we have several topics running here now. A. the value of training to deal with adrenaline effects in real fights B. whether or not humans have any instincts and C. whether or not split second responses applied under pressure (that don't require one to think through them as they are applied) can be remembered.

Duane- On Combat is phenomenal I have both that and On Killing. I'm not sure I agree with some things he claims but overall Grossman's work is excellent and seems pretty consistent with most research I've seen, as well as personal experiences and that of fellow soldiers who have been in combat. Training under stress does indeed improve our ability to handle the adrenaline effects involved in real life combat, the military has proven that and Grossman goes in depth on the studies done.


Edited by Stormdragon (03/02/12 02:32 AM)
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#434724 - 03/04/12 11:19 PM Re: Adrenaline: How to get familiar with the effects? [Re: Stormdragon]
47MartialMan Offline
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A minor in psychology is not the basis to add credit to humans having instinct....


Edited by 47MartialMan (03/04/12 11:20 PM)

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#434725 - 03/05/12 12:41 AM Re: Adrenaline: How to get familiar with the effects? [Re: 47MartialMan]
hope Offline
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Registered: 07/12/09
Posts: 149
Loc: Vancouver, B.C.
I taught psychology for several years at a university level. The question of whether humans have "instincts" is not cut and dried, yes or no.

If one considers instincts to be fixed action patterns produced by specific stimuli, which are not learned or affected by learning, no, humans don't have them, and there aren't many in animals either -- many things which seem to be "fixed" can be affected by learning.

We have lots of inborn tendencies, having to do with eating, drinking, safety... Babies don't need to learn how to suckle, or how to cry for attention. However, how we channel these as we age and gain experience is enormously affected by learning. Sexual and aggressive motivations are not learned, but if and how we channel or display them is culturally dependent.

And, we can train some animals to display or channel their motivational states as well. Think of trained attack dogs.

If we call motivational states instinct, yes indeed we have them. If we say instincts are patterned behavior unaffected by learning, we don't have them.

(Reflexes are not usually considered instincts. Many are simple nervous system responses, which may not need brain processing. Responses that need some brain processing may potentially be affected by learning).

That said, how instinct is defined becomes a political question, and it goes in and out of fashion whether or not humans are considered to have instincts.

Hope this is helpful and not TMI!
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#434732 - 03/05/12 06:37 PM Re: Adrenaline: How to get familiar with the effects? [Re: hope]
Stormdragon Offline
Who Dares Wins
Professional Poster

Registered: 08/05/04
Posts: 3409
Loc: Salem, OR
Originally Posted By: hope
I taught psychology for several years at a university level. The question of whether humans have "instincts" is not cut and dried, yes or no.

If one considers instincts to be fixed action patterns produced by specific stimuli, which are not learned or affected by learning, no, humans don't have them, and there aren't many in animals either -- many things which seem to be "fixed" can be affected by learning.

We have lots of inborn tendencies, having to do with eating, drinking, safety... Babies don't need to learn how to suckle, or how to cry for attention. However, how we channel these as we age and gain experience is enormously affected by learning. Sexual and aggressive motivations are not learned, but if and how we channel or display them is culturally dependent.

And, we can train some animals to display or channel their motivational states as well. Think of trained attack dogs.

If we call motivational states instinct, yes indeed we have them. If we say instincts are patterned behavior unaffected by learning, we don't have them.

(Reflexes are not usually considered instincts. Many are simple nervous system responses, which may not need brain processing. Responses that need some brain processing may potentially be affected by learning).

That said, how instinct is defined becomes a political question, and it goes in and out of fashion whether or not humans are considered to have instincts.

Hope this is helpful and not TMI!


Interesting, I've been taught that the fact that learning or conditioning can affect them doesn't mean they aren't instincts necessarily because they are still inborn and not learned behaviors and that's what instincts are (I'm talking about behaviors not motivational states alone).

"We have lots of inborn tendencies, having to do with eating, drinking, safety... Babies don't need to learn how to suckle, or how to cry for attention." By the accepted definitions of instincts I've seen, those are instincts. I guess you learned a different definition of the term instincts though and there's apparently variation in psychology still. It always was largely dependent on culture and what happens to be politically acceptable though, nothing has changed about that it seems. In psychology I've learned that we do have instincts, or inborn behavioral/emotional tendencies but those are acted on by experience (nature AND nurture), whereas sociology teaches that basically we are purely products of environment (I consider sociology to be the annoying baby of the family that tries to suck up to the political side of things). Skinner's behaviorism has fallen out of vogue but it's still relevant.

In any case, the whole point was whether or not we have inborn (genetic) behavioral traits, instincts or otherwise, and we do, you said so yourself. I was taught that those are instincts whether or not they can be changed at all with conditioning. You learned otherwise. But the point still stands that we do have those unlearned behaviors (as well as patterns of motivation and emotional tendencies).
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Member of DaJoGen MMA school under Dave Hagen and Team Chaos fight team under Denver Mangiyatan and Chris Toquero, ran out of Zanshin Martial Arts in Salem Oregon: http://www.zanshinarts.org/Home.aspx,

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#434734 - 03/05/12 06:47 PM Re: Adrenaline: How to get familiar with the effects? [Re: Stormdragon]
Stormdragon Offline
Who Dares Wins
Professional Poster

Registered: 08/05/04
Posts: 3409
Loc: Salem, OR
Evolutionary psychology is an entire field related to the study of "instinctual" human behavior (due to evolutionary adaptations). Neuropsychology is also relevant to this and lends credence to the idea that part of who we our (our thoughts and behaviors) is not due to learning (but rather the structure and chemistry of our brains). Realistically we are a product of both sides.
_________________________
Member of DaJoGen MMA school under Dave Hagen and Team Chaos fight team under Denver Mangiyatan and Chris Toquero, ran out of Zanshin Martial Arts in Salem Oregon: http://www.zanshinarts.org/Home.aspx,

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