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#431655 - 03/02/11 02:40 AM Dirty techniques and sport fighting
Stormdragon Offline
Who Dares Wins
Professional Poster

Registered: 08/05/04
Posts: 3409
Loc: Salem, OR
A lot of people hold the opinion that arts/combat sports like BJJ, wrestling, muay thai, mma etc. are only marginally effective for fighting because all someone has to do is brab your nuts or eye gouge or something like that. They don't train you to handle real fighting o nthe street or whatever. and to soem degree that's true (jumping guard in a street fight is incredibly stupid for example, and leg locks should also be avodied), however the core concepts will apply no matter what someone does, dirty fighting or not. Here's why- http://www.sherdog.net/forums/f12/video-draculino-vs-ball-grabbers-1560623/

I'm certified on level 1 Army Combatives. It's the new hand to hand system of the U.S. Army and is basically all BJJ and wrestling till level 3. We get a lot of criticism (especially from old school vets and wannnabe civilian survivalist types) for teaching submissions, grappling, not teaching ball shots, eye gouging, fish hooking, face stomps, etc. Granted I think we go a little TOO deep into submission work, the BJJ approach to position control and the wrestling emphasis on dominating a clinch or being able to escape at will, saves lives in the cage, on the steet, on in a war zone.

I post this because it's a widespread idea that if you spend all your time doing pre-arranged sets of ball hitting and eye gouging and other dirty moves, you'll be better prepared than someone who spends all their time sparring hard, learning to control distance and position through "sport" fighting. THAT will get guys killed. BJJ is just fine in the street, not everything is applicable technique wise but the principles and core techniques are icnredibly applicable and allow trainign with force while maintaining safety which is why the military uses it now. At level 3 and 4 striking is added but technically it's all still mma. However, training is then done in full battle rattle while doing room clearing MOUT drills and having guys roll while one guy is secretly given a tazer knife. That is good RBSD. This: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RKfcoBfp4K4 is not (however good it may be as a father-son bonding experience. And I will say, it does have SOME value, it's not totally worthless but that kind of thing should not be a major part of training for SD or fighting).


Edited by Stormdragon (03/02/11 02:42 AM)
_________________________
Member of DaJoGen MMA school under Dave Hagen and Team Chaos fight team under Denver Mangiyatan and Chris Toquero, ran out of Zanshin Martial Arts in Salem Oregon: http://www.zanshinarts.org/Home.aspx,

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#431662 - 03/04/11 08:01 AM Re: Dirty techniques and sport fighting [Re: Stormdragon]
Prizewriter Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 10/23/05
Posts: 2572
Hi Stormdragon

I agree with what you are saying. Apart from anything else, if a person is only training eye gouges, groin shots a) are they likely to be able to do them when the heat is on? b)are they likely to be successful c) are they going to be an appropriate technique to the situation at hand?

I've gotten back in to Judo since last year, really as a way of getting a workout thats a bit different from my normal fitness routine. I've recently started trainig a bit in a local Gracie Garage too. I'm sure you know the sort of place I'm talking about, they train in a garage using the Gracie Academy material.

One thing I did notice is that they use BJJ against different sorts of energy. For example, they use the basic trap, roll, escape while someone is simulating striking or a two handed choke from the mount. Althought the principles are the same as in any other BJJ class, you're training against different sorts of movements.

Most combat sports, be it BJJ, Judo, Wrestling, Boxing et al... usually only focus on defeating other people from the same discipline. I think it could be useful if now and again a judoka or wrestler learnt how to defend against a partner who is trying to punch them in the head, or for a kickboxer to learn how to cope when someone clinches you and tries to grapple with you.

In Judo they talk about high percentage throws and low percentage throws. High percentage throws work most of the time in Judo matches. Low percentage throws rarely work in Judo matches. In the same way, I think in physical self protection, some training is high percentage (likely to work) and some training is low percentage (not likely to work). For me things like eye gouging and groin shots are very much in the low percentage category.
_________________________
"Let your food be your medicine, and your medicine be your food" Hippocrates.

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#431665 - 03/05/11 11:23 AM Re: Dirty techniques and sport fighting [Re: Prizewriter]
Stormdragon Offline
Who Dares Wins
Professional Poster

Registered: 08/05/04
Posts: 3409
Loc: Salem, OR
Exactly. The balls are a fairly small target, so are the eyes, and how many people have it in them to actually rip at a guy's eyes? Some sure but if that's all you've learned you better hope you can pull it off under pressure and actually go through with it. I'm all for paying attention to when those opportunities come up but it pays to have a few other options and if you can control position than you'll have a much easier time pulling that off anyway. I used to argue with JK on that till I started doing BJJ with people hwo knew what they were doing.

If you can defend agaisnt someone choking you or throwing strieks while mounted you can defend against an eye gouge from there. It's the energy they give you, like you said. Same with groin kicks standing, if I can defend agaisnt a front kick to the stomach (I can) then I can defend against a front kick to the balls.

Now it doesn't hurt to sometiems simulate throwing shots to thsoe targets, because to accomplish it does take skill and there's a difference between an eye gouge and chin jab despite the motion being the same, those are effective and should be worked some but it's much more important to master specific movements.

For me, RBSD is more about trainign agaisnt all the different energies (striking and chokes/locks) people can give you and in different environmental conditions (low light, debris, different clothes, different room types, etc.). There is little difference between an eye gouge from mount and a "date rape choke" (I'll still arm trap and roll) or an eye flick and a jab. Just a minor adjustment. Those are super techniques that defeat anything though people love to think that. Try to punch a guy in the balls hwo is mount on you you'll get clocked in the face or armbarred. But while fighting to keep your elbows inside their legs (preventing high mount) be aware throwing an elbow into the groin can help open other things. It's still adhering to basic concepts of grappling.


Edited by Stormdragon (03/05/11 11:25 AM)
_________________________
Member of DaJoGen MMA school under Dave Hagen and Team Chaos fight team under Denver Mangiyatan and Chris Toquero, ran out of Zanshin Martial Arts in Salem Oregon: http://www.zanshinarts.org/Home.aspx,

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#434948 - 04/09/12 01:20 AM Re: Dirty techniques and sport fighting [Re: Stormdragon]
Chen Zen Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/09/03
Posts: 7043
Loc: Ms
Hi Guys, Been a While.

Dirty fighting versus the trained athlete. A classic discussion. While I lean towards the direction of the trained fighter I must say something for the less crude but effective techniques out there.

There are som things out there that do work and require no real training. A punch or kick to the groin or banging an oponents head off the concrete repeatedly seem to work wonders wink. With that said its not a bread and butter technique to base a strategy around, like a jab for example.

I think the objective for either style of fighter would be to integrate a little more of the other way of doing things. I think any martial artist should have a rough side to him, and should be prepared for these types of attacks and I think that anyone out there relying simply on these types of attacks would do himself a servic by visiting the local boxing gym or wrestling hall if he wants to survive a real encounter with a real fighter. Thanks, and glad to be back
_________________________
"When I let Go of who I am, I become who I might be."
Lao Tzu

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#435090 - 04/17/12 10:56 PM Re: Dirty techniques and sport fighting [Re: Chen Zen]
Stormdragon Offline
Who Dares Wins
Professional Poster

Registered: 08/05/04
Posts: 3409
Loc: Salem, OR
Good to have you back Chen. I agree, basing a whole approach on a set of "dirty" techniques isn't the best idea that's not a real foundation, but it's a good idea to spend time familiarizing with them because they are something to be aware of. I believe in, as far as the physical side of self defense goes, basing your skills around a combination of boxing or kickboxing, wrestling or Judo, and BJJ or Catch (or whatever combination of those you like as long as you can handle all aspects of fighting) but applying those skill sets in unique and realistic situations. In the Army a drill used sometimes is to throw a tazer knife next to two guys rolling to build situational awareness and use of what's i nthe environment, or have one guy be slipped one to hide in a pocket to pull out unexpectedly, or to go through room clearing drills with guys who are specifically set to go into hand to hand attacks. The delivery system as JK calls it is essentially the same as in mma, but applied in different situations and with "dirty" techniques thrown in at times (in the advanced levels in the first few levels they don't do that). I had one instructor who used the sling on his rifle to choke a guy while going through a drill like this. Same fundamentals applied creatively.
_________________________
Member of DaJoGen MMA school under Dave Hagen and Team Chaos fight team under Denver Mangiyatan and Chris Toquero, ran out of Zanshin Martial Arts in Salem Oregon: http://www.zanshinarts.org/Home.aspx,

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#435091 - 04/17/12 10:57 PM Re: Dirty techniques and sport fighting [Re: Stormdragon]
Stormdragon Offline
Who Dares Wins
Professional Poster

Registered: 08/05/04
Posts: 3409
Loc: Salem, OR
And just to be clear, the Army program of combatives, which is like 80% BJJ, 10% wrestling and 10% kickboxing has saved a lot of lvies both in self defense and war so clearly it works.
_________________________
Member of DaJoGen MMA school under Dave Hagen and Team Chaos fight team under Denver Mangiyatan and Chris Toquero, ran out of Zanshin Martial Arts in Salem Oregon: http://www.zanshinarts.org/Home.aspx,

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#435092 - 04/18/12 12:12 AM Re: Dirty techniques and sport fighting [Re: Stormdragon]
Chen Zen Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/09/03
Posts: 7043
Loc: Ms
Storm,

Thanks Glad to be back.

Ive done similar drills as well. We had nights at an old dojo I used to attend when the instructors could turn the lights on or off during sparring, or would have loud music come on in an instance. It wasnt uncommon for an instructor to jump in a match on one persons side. Other times they used objects to create enviromental awareness. Chairs, other students. Never any weapons though. These types of things are priceless tools and if you're gym doesnt do these things, they should.
_________________________
"When I let Go of who I am, I become who I might be."
Lao Tzu

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