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#431612 - 02/23/11 09:19 AM Censorship of the board
VDJ Offline
Veteran

Registered: 05/09/05
Posts: 1672
For awhile I supported the rules of the board but no longer do as there is some hypocracy that pertains to it. The thread "Entitlements" was locked down due to its political nature. Yet several months ago the thread of "G.D. the Supreme Court" is 4 pages long and is still open! This is how freedom is lost, in baby steps! It starts on a board by limiting what is able to be discussed and shuting down debate and spreads from there! The board is set up to discuss AND debate things of Martial Arts nature, which in of itself can be political. We have seen flamers come and go, some get banned (not sure I agree with this anymore either) and others do not (this is not SPECIFICALLY directed to the FA board as I have seen it on other boards as well).

I can't disagree more with cord, the discussion and debate of BOTH politics AND religion is exactly how the USA began its birthing process, it took awhile, but the founders came to a conclusion and went on from there. This thread may also get locked down, but before the Moderator decides to do that just think to yourself, when will MY voice get shut down?! As ther board has become slower regarding Martial Arts topics, when a topic comes up, it should NOT be discarded for fear of where it may lead. If that is the way it is going to be (especially in the "General Discussion" forum), then it is no longer imteresting to visit, and that is where I am at now.The topics here have become very uninteresting. I rarely post and my visits are fewer. Maybe its me, but I just don't find coming to the board enjoyable anymore! I will continue to lurk, but not participate as much.

VDJ



Edited by Cord (02/24/11 10:27 AM)
Edit Reason: political aside removed

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#431622 - 02/24/11 08:15 AM Re: Censorship of the board [Re: VDJ]
JoelM Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/26/04
Posts: 6355
Loc: Georgia, USA
Suck it up, Princess.

Yes, I thought the supreme court thread should have been shut down, along with other threads that weren't.

Discussion and debate of BOTH politics AND religion may be how the USA began. This is NOT Colonial America. Neither is this a free place. This is a private website owned and operated by private entities that allow you to participate at THEIR leisure. It also has participants from around the world so there is no Constitution or Bill of Rights that apply. If you feel stifled, then create your own website and talk how you want there. You ARE free to do that if you wish.

If you feel rules are being selectively applied, then stating your opinion in a factual manner is much more productive than whining about being the oppressed minority. But in the end, unless you are a moderator, then you have no powers except the power to leave.
_________________________
We should all take ourselves seriously...and then crumple that image up and toss it out the window.

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#431624 - 02/24/11 10:26 AM Re: Censorship of the board [Re: VDJ]
Cord Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/13/05
Posts: 11399
Loc: Cambridge UK.
Good grief, what are you auditioning for, local government, or an oscar wink

To answer your points.

1. This is not the USA. This is a website with a global community, that embraces different cultural and religious concepts by keeping them out of discussions, so that personal dogma's do not cloud meeting of minds through a unified interest in martial arts.

2. The rules of the site are set neither by admin, nor moderators (plural, its not just me btw), they are set by the site owner - the guy who invests his time and money in providing the space for us to use. His house, his rules. Complaints to the organ grinder, not his monkeys please wink

3. Inconsistency is human. We are human. Hence some threads get more room to breath than others. I personaly have not seen the other thread you mention, but will look for it now, and lock it in the name of consistency. I am sure this will delight you.

4. If the site content bores you, you have 2 choices. 1. Raise your game and come up with interesting martial topics for us all to discuss within parameters of the rules that you agreed to upon setting up your account, or 2. move on and find a dedicated forum that caters to your inerests and needs. Thats freedom of choice in action right there. Rejoice.

5. If martial topics evolve to embrace certain political input and it is valid, then leeway can be granted in the name of the topic, but overt purely political discussion is just off topic, and does not enrich the site - I wouldnt go to a politics board to discuss self defence, and I wouldnt visit an MA site to talk politics. Horses for courses eh?

6. I wont lock this topic, but I am going to edit out your ninja furtherance of a political topic. Thats how I roll.

Have a nice day.
_________________________
Don't let the door hit ya' where the good lord split ya'
http://cord.mybrute.com

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#431627 - 02/24/11 01:11 PM Re: Censorship of the board [Re: Cord]
MattJ Offline
Free Rhinoplasty!
Prolific

Registered: 11/25/04
Posts: 15634
Loc: York PA. USA
Vince, I can understand that you might see a bit of hypocrisy with the other thread recently getting locked. But if you look back through the history of the General Talk forum, we have allowed discussion of many other conservative-leaning (for want of a better term?) threads to go on for a quite a bit.

Sometimes we're just inconsistent about locking stuff. There's no conspiracy, my friend. smile
_________________________
"In case you ever wondered what it's like to be knocked out, it's like waking up from a nightmare only to discover it wasn't a dream." -Forrest Griffin

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#431629 - 02/24/11 04:17 PM Re: Censorship of the board [Re: MattJ]
Zombie Zero Offline
Compliance & Liability
Veteran

Registered: 06/17/05
Posts: 1990
Loc: Lorton, VA
Or maybe we're giving people enough rope to hang themselves.
_________________________
In my walk in the martial way, my hope is that as long as I live, I will always be a beginner.

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#431630 - 02/24/11 07:00 PM Re: Censorship of the board [Re: Zombie Zero]
MattJ Offline
Free Rhinoplasty!
Prolific

Registered: 11/25/04
Posts: 15634
Loc: York PA. USA
Ha, that's been true, too, Z! XD

And ironically, the idea that there is a moderator bias or view is kind of funny to me, because I have personally been accused of being both too lenient AND too strict at times (and even at the same time) - by some of the other moderators, LOL. And have leveled the same accusations at them, too. Such is life. We all have our own biases, but they're not all the same......I assure you.

When you look at the overall "freedom" level of this site compared to others, we are much more on the "freedom" side of things. But I'm sure some will disagree. laugh
_________________________
"In case you ever wondered what it's like to be knocked out, it's like waking up from a nightmare only to discover it wasn't a dream." -Forrest Griffin

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#431632 - 02/25/11 09:29 AM Re: Censorship of the board [Re: JoelM]
VDJ Offline
Veteran

Registered: 05/09/05
Posts: 1672
Originally Posted By: JoelM
Suck it up, Princess.

Yes, I thought the supreme court thread should have been shut down, along with other threads that weren't.

Discussion and debate of BOTH politics AND religion may be how the USA began. This is NOT Colonial America. Neither is this a free place. This is a private website owned and operated by private entities that allow you to participate at THEIR leisure. It also has participants from around the world so there is no Constitution or Bill of Rights that apply. If you feel stifled, then create your own website and talk how you want there. You ARE free to do that if you wish.

If you feel rules are being selectively applied, then stating your opinion in a factual manner is much more productive than whining about being the oppressed minority. But in the end, unless you are a moderator, then you have no powers except the power to leave.



Where in my post have I claimed to be an "Oppressed Minority"?! I did state my opinion in a factual manner. It is FACTUAL that there have been threads of a political nature that have NOT been locked down and others that HAVE! Where is that not factual "Princess"? Yes it is a private site, BUT the owner IS an American citizen who is protected by the constitution as his site is originated here! And you make my point BEAUTIFULLY, ONLY the Mods have the freedom to choose WHAT political threads can be locked down or not!

VDJ

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#431633 - 02/25/11 09:50 AM Re: Censorship of the board [Re: Cord]
VDJ Offline
Veteran

Registered: 05/09/05
Posts: 1672
Originally Posted By: Cord
Good grief, what are you auditioning for, local government, or an oscar wink

The only thing I'm seeking is fairness!

To answer your points.

1. This is not the USA. This is a website with a global community, that embraces different cultural and religious concepts by keeping them out of discussions, so that personal dogma's do not cloud meeting of minds through a unified interest in martial arts.

Then do away with the "General Discussion" Forum as that makes people think they can have , well, a General discussion. My reference to the USA's birthing process was just that, a reference as how the debates of the topics were not shut down!

2. The rules of the site are set neither by admin, nor moderators (plural, its not just me btw), they are set by the site owner - the guy who invests his time and money in providing the space for us to use. His house, his rules. Complaints to the organ grinder, not his monkeys please wink

Does not Mr. Calie read his own site? Maybe if he see's there are unhappy campers, he changes the rules!

3. Inconsistency is human. We are human. Hence some threads get more room to breath than others. I personaly have not seen the other thread you mention, but will look for it now, and lock it in the name of consistency. I am sure this will delight you.

No, it doesn't delight me at all as it goes against what I'm complaining about to begin with (just being consistent)!

4. If the site content bores you, you have 2 choices. 1. Raise your game and come up with interesting martial topics for us all to discuss within parameters of the rules that you agreed to upon setting up your account, or 2. move on and find a dedicated forum that caters to your inerests and needs. Thats freedom of choice in action right there. Rejoice.

I have tried as have others and the board still lies some what dorment. Yes I agreed to the rules 5 years ago and if you read my post, I have CLEARLY stated that due to incosistencies I have changed my mind!

5. If martial topics evolve to embrace certain political input and it is valid, then leeway can be granted in the name of the topic, but overt purely political discussion is just off topic, and does not enrich the site - I wouldnt go to a politics board to discuss self defence, and I wouldnt visit an MA site to talk politics. Horses for courses eh?

If self defence comes up on a politcal site, I say have at it! Again, see above about having (or NOT having) a "General Discussion" forum!

6. I wont lock this topic, but I am going to edit out your ninja furtherance of a political topic. Thats how I roll.

Have a nice day.


I usally do!

VDJ

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#431634 - 02/25/11 02:16 PM Re: Censorship of the board [Re: VDJ]
Cord Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/13/05
Posts: 11399
Loc: Cambridge UK.
Originally Posted By: VDJ
Yes it is a private site, BUT the owner IS an American citizen who is protected by the constitution as his site is originated here!


He is also the person who created the rules that prevent free speech on political subjects on these forums.

Originally Posted By: VDJ
And you make my point BEAUTIFULLY, ONLY the Mods have the freedom to choose WHAT political threads can be locked down or not!


Actually, the point is that we DONT have that 'freedom'. As mods, we are obliged to ensure adherence to the site rules. On a personal level, I have no real issue or interest on political threads, they never resolve anything, are seldom pleasant, but if people want to argue to a standstill with strangers, I say 'good luck to you'. Sadly, the site rules dont allow me to allow you to do this.

Early on in the life of the 'general talk' forum the mods decided to give greater leeway to the life of non martialart topics, so that should they tread political paths, they would be given room to right themselves.

In that spirit, some political topics have been let loose, dependant on the judgement call of the mod who happens to see them. Apparently you are unhappy that this has happened, so to level the playing field, I for one am more than happy to reinforce zero tolerance in accordance with the letter, not the spirit, of the site rules.

Hope this meets with your approval.
_________________________
Don't let the door hit ya' where the good lord split ya'
http://cord.mybrute.com

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#431635 - 02/25/11 04:04 PM Re: Censorship of the board [Re: Cord]
Stormdragon Offline
Who Dares Wins
Professional Poster

Registered: 08/05/04
Posts: 3409
Loc: Salem, OR
It's an internet site, not a government, you can't apply political structures like the constitution to it, especially when it's comprised of members from multiple countries. Go to the supreme court if you think otherwise.
For better or worse, not everyone holds the american view of free speech and so the owner has decided not to force it on people. Deal with it.
_________________________
Member of DaJoGen MMA school under Dave Hagen and Team Chaos fight team under Denver Mangiyatan and Chris Toquero, ran out of Zanshin Martial Arts in Salem Oregon: http://www.zanshinarts.org/Home.aspx,

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#431636 - 02/25/11 05:02 PM Re: Censorship of the board [Re: Stormdragon]
VDJ Offline
Veteran

Registered: 05/09/05
Posts: 1672
This is beatiful! Everyone telling me to deal with the free speech issue (or lack thereof) on the board! Until their speech will be impeded, here or someplace else! First off, My FIRST REFERENCE to the constitution was in regards to the goings on in Wisconsin, NOT this board (which, btw, has been removed)!, My second reference to it was that Mr. Calie, the owner of the site, is an American citizen and as such, he and this board which originated in the USA is protected by it! So before anyone else wants to jump on me about my REFERENCES to such things, READ THE POST THOROUGHLY AND KEEP IT IN CONTEXT! Which can be hard to do as a portion of my post has been "Edited"! Funny thing that I notice now is how alive THIS thread is! Hmmmmm!

VDJ

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#431637 - 02/25/11 05:39 PM Re: Censorship of the board [Re: VDJ]
MattJ Offline
Free Rhinoplasty!
Prolific

Registered: 11/25/04
Posts: 15634
Loc: York PA. USA
Hi Vince. I know that it's hard to imagine that this American-owned site wouldn't be protected under the constitution, but I'm pretty sure that is the case. It looks like it should be, since you and I live in America. But I assure you that if we lived in say, Iran or China, or any other number of more oppressive states, this site - and any other that government felt like - could and would be blocked instantly. The internet is not protected by the constitution.

And in any case, as Cord noted, Mr. Caile has set the rules on free speech here for the mods to follow. Technically, there isn't supposed to be *any* political or religious stuff at all, unless it strictly had to do with martial arts (like the case of shorinji-ryu kempo, say), so we were granting quite a bit of freedom in allowing any at all, by the rules. Sometimes it was walking a tightrope in deciding to allow or not allow things in the general forum. Even the mods did not always agree!
_________________________
"In case you ever wondered what it's like to be knocked out, it's like waking up from a nightmare only to discover it wasn't a dream." -Forrest Griffin

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#431638 - 02/25/11 06:16 PM Re: Censorship of the board [Re: VDJ]
Cord Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/13/05
Posts: 11399
Loc: Cambridge UK.
Originally Posted By: VDJ
My FIRST REFERENCE to the constitution was in regards to the goings on in Wisconsin, NOT this board (which, btw, has been removed)


Yes, by me. The topic had already been locked down. Derailing your own thread to continue offering opinion on a locked topic isnt going to wash. You are the one who has asked for proper and consistent moderation remember, I am just obliging.

Originally Posted By: VDJ
My second reference to it was that Mr. Calie, the owner of the site, is an American citizen and as such, he and this board which originated in the USA is protected by it!


And yet he has used his individual right and free choice to put restrictions on subject matter on his website. Restrictions that you agreed to under the terms and conditions of conduct upon joining the site. So you exercised your free choice to agree to abide by these rules. You were not forced to join the site, so yoy civil liberties have not been compromised against your will.

Originally Posted By: VDJ
So before anyone else wants to jump on me about my REFERENCES to such things, READ THE POST THOROUGHLY AND KEEP IT IN CONTEXT! Which can be hard to do as a portion of my post has been "Edited"!


The portion edited was an addendum that dealt purely with a response to Iaibear's thread that was locked. The main body of your post remains in tact and unabridged, so if you didnt mean it, you should have worded it better- nothing I removed changed the nature of your argument with the moderation of the site.

And before you go rattling on about democracy equating freedom, I would like you to go outside, drive your car at 70 through the centre of your town, run every red light, park up in the disabled zone at the mall, go smoke a cigarrette inside your nearest restaurant, and then strip off and walk around the shops naked.

Then you can come back after you have been bailed and tell me how 'free' we are to do whatever we like in our society wink

Life has rules. The site has rules. Simple truth.
_________________________
Don't let the door hit ya' where the good lord split ya'
http://cord.mybrute.com

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#431639 - 02/25/11 06:51 PM Re: Censorship of the board [Re: Cord]
VDJ Offline
Veteran

Registered: 05/09/05
Posts: 1672
Nice try Cord. Yes, Life has rules and laws, but discussing a political or religous view does not pose a threat or endanger a life like doing 70 miles an hr in the middle of town and running red lights or yelling "FIRE" in a crowded room for that matter! And yes as I stated earlier, 5 YEARS ago I signed up on this sight agreeing to abide by the rules set.

But as the years went on and I saw how some threads were allowed to go on and others nipped immediately I began to question why the rules applied to some threads and not others. When these threads come up, do you and the other mods confer with Mr. Calie, or do you just say "WHOA! Thats against the rules"! And if its the latter, why some go on and others do not?

And finally, there have been several comments of my references to the constitution taking completely out of context and will continue as by removing that portion of my post, people cannot refer back to it!

VDJ

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#431640 - 02/25/11 06:56 PM Re: Censorship of the board [Re: MattJ]
VDJ Offline
Veteran

Registered: 05/09/05
Posts: 1672
Originally Posted By: MattJ
Hi Vince. I know that it's hard to imagine that this American-owned site wouldn't be protected under the constitution, but I'm pretty sure that is the case. It looks like it should be, since you and I live in America. But I assure you that if we lived in say, Iran or China, or any other number of more oppressive states, this site - and any other that government felt like - could and would be blocked instantly. The internet is not protected by the constitution.

And in any case, as Cord noted, Mr. Caile has set the rules on free speech here for the mods to follow. Technically, there isn't supposed to be *any* political or religious stuff at all, unless it strictly had to do with martial arts (like the case of shorinji-ryu kempo, say), so we were granting quite a bit of freedom in allowing any at all, by the rules. Sometimes it was walking a tightrope in deciding to allow or not allow things in the general forum. Even the mods did not always agree!


Then I'm guessing that you don't remember the ruling by the Supreme Court a few years back that protected some scumbag who had a site that used "Virtual" chidren and made up stories about disgusting acts with them under the premise of free speech!

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#431641 - 02/25/11 07:27 PM Re: Censorship of the board [Re: VDJ]
Stormdragon Offline
Who Dares Wins
Professional Poster

Registered: 08/05/04
Posts: 3409
Loc: Salem, OR
Face it, you don't have free speech on here. Start your own site if you don't like. Or once again, if you really think your rights are somehow being infringed take it to the supreme court. It'll be thrown out immediately I bet but go ahead and try.
And the fact is, as strange as it sounds, free speech has limits (which is why you can't yell fire in a building when there isn't one and why the Westboro Baptist nut jobs are banned from protesting in some areas).
_________________________
Member of DaJoGen MMA school under Dave Hagen and Team Chaos fight team under Denver Mangiyatan and Chris Toquero, ran out of Zanshin Martial Arts in Salem Oregon: http://www.zanshinarts.org/Home.aspx,

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#431642 - 02/25/11 07:41 PM Re: Censorship of the board [Re: Stormdragon]
MattJ Offline
Free Rhinoplasty!
Prolific

Registered: 11/25/04
Posts: 15634
Loc: York PA. USA
Quote:
Then I'm guessing that you don't remember the ruling by the Supreme Court a few years back that protected some scumbag who had a site that used "Virtual" chidren and made up stories about disgusting acts with them under the premise of free speech!


Ha, don't get me started on the Supreme Court, LOL (see the GD Supreme Court thread). They have made some massively bad decisions recently, IMHO. The dog-fighting thing INFURIATED me.

But to stay on topic, the Supreme Court does not set the rules here - Mr. Caile does. I'll be the first one to admit I haven't done a perfect job, but there is no political conspiracy, at all.
_________________________
"In case you ever wondered what it's like to be knocked out, it's like waking up from a nightmare only to discover it wasn't a dream." -Forrest Griffin

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#431643 - 02/25/11 09:46 PM Re: Censorship of the board [Re: Stormdragon]
VDJ Offline
Veteran

Registered: 05/09/05
Posts: 1672
Originally Posted By: Stormdragon
Face it, you don't have free speech on here. Start your own site if you don't like. Or once again, if you really think your rights are somehow being infringed take it to the supreme court. It'll be thrown out immediately I bet but go ahead and try.
And the fact is, as strange as it sounds, free speech has limits (which is why you can't yell fire in a building when there isn't one and why the Westboro Baptist nut jobs are banned from protesting in some areas).


Why would I want to start my own sight? I have made an observation and expressed a view and all I have recieved for the most part is nasty critisism about me not liking how some threads are locked and others are not when they are of the same or similar topics that are "Against" the rules! I won't even bother to address your comment regarding bringing something before the supreme court!

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#431644 - 02/25/11 09:50 PM Re: Censorship of the board [Re: MattJ]
VDJ Offline
Veteran

Registered: 05/09/05
Posts: 1672
Originally Posted By: MattJ
Quote:
Then I'm guessing that you don't remember the ruling by the Supreme Court a few years back that protected some scumbag who had a site that used "Virtual" chidren and made up stories about disgusting acts with them under the premise of free speech!


Ha, don't get me started on the Supreme Court, LOL (see the GD Supreme Court thread). They have made some massively bad decisions recently, IMHO. The dog-fighting thing INFURIATED me.

But to stay on topic, the Supreme Court does not set the rules here - Mr. Caile does. I'll be the first one to admit I haven't done a perfect job, but there is no political conspiracy, at all.




Matt,

I was only pointing out that they did in fact rule on an internet site in regards to free speech as you posted above that they did not have the authority. I don't know what their perameters are to do so, but there is definitely a precedent!

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#431645 - 02/25/11 09:56 PM Re: Censorship of the board [Re: VDJ]
Stormdragon Offline
Who Dares Wins
Professional Poster

Registered: 08/05/04
Posts: 3409
Loc: Salem, OR
Originally Posted By: VDJ
Originally Posted By: Stormdragon
Face it, you don't have free speech on here. Start your own site if you don't like. Or once again, if you really think your rights are somehow being infringed take it to the supreme court. It'll be thrown out immediately I bet but go ahead and try.
And the fact is, as strange as it sounds, free speech has limits (which is why you can't yell fire in a building when there isn't one and why the Westboro Baptist nut jobs are banned from protesting in some areas).


Why would I want to start my own sight? I have made an observation and expressed a view and all I have recieved for the most part is nasty critisism about me not liking how some threads are locked and others are not when they are of the same or similar topics that are "Against" the rules! I won't even bother to address your comment regarding bringing something before the supreme court!


You expressed a view and the moderators told you why it was wrong. You aren't in charge, Caile and the mods are. Yet you don't seem to want to let it go. If you care that much than why wouldn't you start your own site or at least go to another forum? Can't always have your way, rules are rules. I don't have freedom of speech in the Army and I don't complain about it. For the very same reason, that it won't matter one bit because I'm not in charge and things don't always work the way I want, no matter how much I don't like it.
_________________________
Member of DaJoGen MMA school under Dave Hagen and Team Chaos fight team under Denver Mangiyatan and Chris Toquero, ran out of Zanshin Martial Arts in Salem Oregon: http://www.zanshinarts.org/Home.aspx,

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#431646 - 02/25/11 11:35 PM Re: Censorship of the board [Re: VDJ]
JoelM Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/26/04
Posts: 6355
Loc: Georgia, USA
Originally Posted By: VDJ
Yes, Life has rules and laws, but discussing a political or religous view does not pose a threat or endanger a life like doing 70 miles an hr in the middle of town and running red lights or yelling "FIRE" in a crowded room for that matter!


But the thing you forget is THAT DOESN'T MATTER. Simple rules of the board, no political discussion.

Originally Posted By: VDJ
I signed up on this sight agreeing to abide by the rules set.


Good, so do that.

Originally Posted By: VDJ
And finally, there have been several comments of my references to the constitution taking completely out of context and will continue as by removing that portion of my post, people cannot refer back to it!


Quote from your original post:
Originally Posted By: VDJ
discussion and debate of BOTH politics AND religion is exactly how the USA began its birthing process, it took awhile, but the founders came to a conclusion and went on from there.


That is why I brought up the Constitution, you referred to the founding fathers and the start of the United States.


All that being said, I agreed with you from the beginning that there was sometimes inconsistant enforcement of the no politics rule. But where we disagree is that you think it should be allowed. I won't try to change your mind, but you have to understand that just because you think one way, it doesn't mean that all rules will be like that and everyone will agree with you. Also to say, I don't know of any other way to at least broach the subject of a rule change other than here on the board or in a personal message to the moderators.
Good Luck.
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#431647 - 02/26/11 07:41 AM Re: Censorship of the board [Re: VDJ]
Cord Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/13/05
Posts: 11399
Loc: Cambridge UK.
Originally Posted By: VDJ
Nice try Cord. Yes, Life has rules and laws, but discussing a political or religous view does not pose a threat or endanger a life


Want to compare global death rate caused by difference of political and religious ideology with that of road traffic fatalities? frown

Originally Posted By: VDJ
5 YEARS ago I signed up on this sight agreeing to abide by the rules set.


Yes you did. So please do so.

Originally Posted By: VDJ
But as the years went on and I saw how some threads were allowed to go on and others nipped immediately I began to question why the rules applied to some threads and not others. When these threads come up, do you and the other mods confer with Mr. Calie, or do you just say "WHOA! Thats against the rules"! And if its the latter, why some go on and others do not?


Already adressed in an earlier response:
Originally Posted By: Cord
Early on in the life of the 'general talk' forum the mods decided to give greater leeway to the life of non martialart topics, so that should they tread political paths, they would be given room to right themselves.

In that spirit, some political topics have been let loose, dependant on the judgement call of the mod who happens to see them.


Again, I acknoweldge the inconsistency of human judgement. I have tried to address these inconsistencies by locking the most recent threads that you have found against site rules, and also editing out the content in you post that contravened site rules too. This is what you want yes? across the board ruling on political discussion. Unless this thread is supposed to make us allow all political discussion, in which case that is simply not going to happen - nobody here has the authority to re-write site rules, ITS NOT OUR SITE!. If this is what you are after, then contact Mr Caille directly and make you case. Maybe get him to drop the bad language rule too, then this will become as vitriolic, retarded and troll infested as the rest of the net. Yay freedom smirk
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#431648 - 02/26/11 10:28 AM Re: Censorship of the board [Re: Cord]
iaibear Offline
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<< ITS NOT OUR SITE! >>

Absolutely true. Think of the various newspapers and magazines offered at our local corner stores. They can print blatantly slanted versions of anything at the editor's pleasure. That leaves it to the informed reader to decide to purchase and read it, if they otherwise enjoy that publication.

That's why I read the forums daily, whether I understand all the articles or not. I might just learn something. And often do.

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#431659 - 03/03/11 03:48 PM Re: Censorship of the board [Re: iaibear]
Stormdragon Offline
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In light of Westboros winning of the supreme court case, I'm even more convicned free speech has limits.
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#431915 - 04/04/11 03:10 PM Re: Censorship of the board [Re: VDJ]
fileboy2002 Offline
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Registered: 11/13/05
Posts: 999
Loc: Chicago, IL
Unfortunately, many people--and I think this is particularly true of people from the US--are extremely averse to conflict. They loath it. They run from it. They don't see that the heat of conflict can often generate light; instead, they see conflict as having no value whatsoever. If given the chance, they will often censor people as a means of avoiding conflict. They'd rather stifle people altogether than risk having anyone say anything upsetting to anyone else. It is utterly undemocratic, but there it is.

Having said that, there are times when moderators need to shut discussion down. Too many boards end up being hijacked by a handful of loudmouthed cranks with endless time on their hands. A few years back, I saw grandemesa.com, a board created by an immigrant right supporter, completely overwhelmed and and destroyed by a handful of militant xenophobes. Their non-stop, Mexican-baiting, racist diatribes drove everyone else away. In the end, the haters were the only ones left. The creator had to shut it down.

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#431918 - 04/04/11 03:51 PM Re: Censorship of the board [Re: fileboy2002]
iaibear Offline
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Wouldn't doubt it for a minute.
Arthur Godfrey (remember him?) thought Political Correctness was (I can't say it here).

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#431960 - 04/06/11 09:51 PM Re: Censorship of the board [Re: fileboy2002]
Stormdragon Offline
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Originally Posted By: fileboy2002
Unfortunately, many people--and I think this is particularly true of people from the US--are extremely averse to conflict. They loath it. They run from it. They don't see that the heat of conflict can often generate light; instead, they see conflict as having no value whatsoever. If given the chance, they will often censor people as a means of avoiding conflict. They'd rather stifle people altogether than risk having anyone say anything upsetting to anyone else. It is utterly undemocratic, but there it is.

Having said that, there are times when moderators need to shut discussion down. Too many boards end up being hijacked by a handful of loudmouthed cranks with endless time on their hands. A few years back, I saw grandemesa.com, a board created by an immigrant right supporter, completely overwhelmed and and destroyed by a handful of militant xenophobes. Their non-stop, Mexican-baiting, racist diatribes drove everyone else away. In the end, the haters were the only ones left. The creator had to shut it down.


So suddenly, being against illegal immigration (supporting AMERICAN LAW) means you're a loudmouthed crank and a racist? Thanks bro real nice. I bet they weren't racist, I bet people jumped to that because nearly all illegals happen to be from Mexico but that's not really the issue, it's just something overly liberal people like to say to divert attention from the real issue.
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#431966 - 04/07/11 12:01 AM Re: Censorship of the board [Re: Stormdragon]
Kimo2007 Offline
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Registered: 03/31/07
Posts: 1057
Quote:
So suddenly, being against illegal immigration (supporting AMERICAN LAW) means you're a loudmouthed crank and a racist? Thanks bro real nice. I bet they weren't racist, I bet people jumped to that because nearly all illegals happen to be from Mexico but that's not really the issue, it's just something overly liberal people like to say to divert attention from the real issue.


I think this is a really weak argument. He didn't say they were loudmouthed cranks because they were against illegal immigration, he said the people who were against illegal immigration were loudmouthed cranks.

It's a critical distinction. WHAT the opinion was is not important, HOW they went about expressing it was.

Besides that, just because something is AMERICAN LAW doesn't make it right or moral. I could fill this board with American Laws that were immoral and or just plain stupid.

Illegal Immigration is a complex problem...one that we cannot discuss here though.
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#431967 - 04/07/11 12:41 AM Re: Censorship of the board [Re: Kimo2007]
Stormdragon Offline
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Ok well, if I misunderstood then I withdraw my statement but I was going by what it sounded like to me. And that's usually what is meant. Point about American law taken. But, no one should be blasted for supporting it, even if you think it's completely idiotic. Arguing the law is one thing but general judgements on people for their views is where my problem is. That said, I'm not trying to discuss that issue itself.
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#431970 - 04/07/11 09:42 AM Re: Censorship of the board [Re: Stormdragon]
iaibear Offline
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Registered: 08/24/05
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Loc: upstate New York
Hasn't this forum developed a "Political Nature"?

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#431974 - 04/07/11 05:41 PM Re: Censorship of the board [Re: iaibear]
Kimo2007 Offline
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Registered: 03/31/07
Posts: 1057
Quote:
Hasn't this forum developed a "Political Nature"?


I think it's close too but restraint has been shown. I think the topic is the nature of discussion, not the content directly.

Point being, it's not what you say but how you say it. The possible reason political discussion is not allowed is because people tend toward knuckle-headed tactics and name calling instead of presenting ideas and supporting them with facts or logic.

The reason the board has slowed down IMHO is there were a few years where pretty much everything was covered, in depth. So now (since we can't get into politics) we are left discussing the nature of discussion.


Edited by Kimo2007 (04/07/11 09:30 PM)
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#431977 - 04/08/11 05:53 AM Re: Censorship of the board [Re: Kimo2007]
Cord Offline
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Registered: 01/13/05
Posts: 11399
Loc: Cambridge UK.
Quote:
The reason the board has slowed down IMHO is there were a few years where pretty much everything was covered, in depth. So now (since we can't get into politics) we are left discussing the nature of discussion.


This is true.

Also, to an extent, the heated nature of political and religious debate is the reason for it being so heavily controlled on here, but more than that, they are 2 subjects in which nobody will be swayed.

Think about it. You have a set of beliefs that have been formed by your experiences and personal interperatation of the world you live in. If those beliefs differ from mine, does me effectively saying 'you're wrong' alter your views in any way? Of course not, any more than you presenting your arguments to me will alter my world perception.

So, really, what's the point? Why go through the mental hoops of justification, refutation, and the general unpleasantries of effectively trying to smash the foundation stones of one anothers very beings?

The best you ever get in a political and/or religious debate is a denoument where people 'agree to disagree'. Well I can do that right now without going through the process of anger/name calling and smug retorts that tend to proceed that inevitable impasse.
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#431982 - 04/08/11 03:44 PM Re: Censorship of the board [Re: Cord]
Stormdragon Offline
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Actually Cord I respectfully disagree. I was raised a devout protestant fudnamentalist christian and was one for a very long time. A few people in my life, 2 teachers and a close friend convinced me of other views after many long discussions. I have gone far, far into the other direction since then. I've seen people's views radically alter through discourse, it may not happen all the time, or even the majority of the time but enough to make it worthwhile, at least in some places (not saying here should be one of those).
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#432019 - 04/10/11 11:32 AM Re: Censorship of the board [Re: Stormdragon]
Cord Offline
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Originally Posted By: Stormdragon
Actually Cord I respectfully disagree. I was raised a devout protestant fudnamentalist christian and was one for a very long time. A few people in my life, 2 teachers and a close friend convinced me of other views after many long discussions.


These are the life experiences of which I speak. Of course teachers and friends carry weight - you know them, you come to respect them, and ergo your mind becomes receptive to what they have to say, and vice versa.

I maybe should have been clearer, and stipulated that the kind of discourse I refer to is that between strangers- in the old days, it was the preserve of bars and pubs, where booze loosens the tongue and such debates often sprang up between casual acquaintances and strangers over a beer or 8 wink
Now the environment has expanded to the internet, where people are happy to clash over any and every subject.
In either scenario, the purpose is to validate and strengthen one's own opinion, not open the mind to contrary beliefs, as those presenting them have no personal weight or merit.
I have always liked the saying 'winning an internet argument is like winning at the special olympics - even in victory, you are still retarded' wink
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#432023 - 04/10/11 03:14 PM Re: Censorship of the board [Re: Cord]
Stormdragon Offline
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What, hardly anyone likes or respects teachers! lol Anyway, yeah I get what you mean and I think it's even more of an issue on the internet, people change online.
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#432038 - 04/11/11 05:03 PM Re: Censorship of the board [Re: Cord]
choonbee Offline
Member

Registered: 02/26/11
Posts: 195
Originally Posted By: Cord

I have always liked the saying 'winning an internet argument is like winning at the special olympics - even in victory, you are still retarded' ;


Lol.
Excellent point.
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#432049 - 04/12/11 10:09 AM Re: Censorship of the board [Re: VDJ]
BrianS Offline
Higher rank than you
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Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 5959
Loc: Northwest Arkansas
Originally Posted By: VDJ
For awhile I supported the rules of the board but no longer do as there is some hypocracy that pertains to it. The thread "Entitlements" was locked down due to its political nature. Yet several months ago the thread of "G.D. the Supreme Court" is 4 pages long and is still open! This is how freedom is lost, in baby steps! It starts on a board by limiting what is able to be discussed and shuting down debate and spreads from there! The board is set up to discuss AND debate things of Martial Arts nature, which in of itself can be political. We have seen flamers come and go, some get banned (not sure I agree with this anymore either) and others do not (this is not SPECIFICALLY directed to the FA board as I have seen it on other boards as well).

I can't disagree more with cord, the discussion and debate of BOTH politics AND religion is exactly how the USA began its birthing process, it took awhile, but the founders came to a conclusion and went on from there. This thread may also get locked down, but before the Moderator decides to do that just think to yourself, when will MY voice get shut down?! As ther board has become slower regarding Martial Arts topics, when a topic comes up, it should NOT be discarded for fear of where it may lead. If that is the way it is going to be (especially in the "General Discussion" forum), then it is no longer imteresting to visit, and that is where I am at now.The topics here have become very uninteresting. I rarely post and my visits are fewer. Maybe its me, but I just don't find coming to the board enjoyable anymore! I will continue to lurk, but not participate as much.

VDJ



Well said and I agree. You haven't seen me much on here in a long time,lol.

I refuse to visit or be a big part of a board whose political and religious views are opposite of mine. I can argue for a while, but it wears me out.
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#432057 - 04/13/11 03:05 AM Re: Censorship of the board [Re: BrianS]
Cord Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/13/05
Posts: 11399
Loc: Cambridge UK.
Originally Posted By: BrianS

I refuse to visit or be a big part of a board whose political and religious views are opposite of mine. I can argue for a while, but it wears me out.


With respect Brian, this is precisely why the rules on religious and political discussion exist - so that people need not feel excluded, and can share their excellent martial art knowledge and experience in an environment devoid of unnecessary factors that focus on our differences, not our bond in the love of the arts.

If you think about it, the people on here that offered you heartfelt support and friendship during your troubles, are now the liberals and heathens you no longer feel inclined to interact with. That only came about because of the experiment to relax the rules on religion and politics frown
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#432060 - 04/13/11 04:56 AM Re: Censorship of the board [Re: BrianS]
Stormdragon Offline
Who Dares Wins
Professional Poster

Registered: 08/05/04
Posts: 3409
Loc: Salem, OR
Originally Posted By: BrianS
Originally Posted By: VDJ
For awhile I supported the rules of the board but no longer do as there is some hypocracy that pertains to it. The thread "Entitlements" was locked down due to its political nature. Yet several months ago the thread of "G.D. the Supreme Court" is 4 pages long and is still open! This is how freedom is lost, in baby steps! It starts on a board by limiting what is able to be discussed and shuting down debate and spreads from there! The board is set up to discuss AND debate things of Martial Arts nature, which in of itself can be political. We have seen flamers come and go, some get banned (not sure I agree with this anymore either) and others do not (this is not SPECIFICALLY directed to the FA board as I have seen it on other boards as well).

I can't disagree more with cord, the discussion and debate of BOTH politics AND religion is exactly how the USA began its birthing process, it took awhile, but the founders came to a conclusion and went on from there. This thread may also get locked down, but before the Moderator decides to do that just think to yourself, when will MY voice get shut down?! As ther board has become slower regarding Martial Arts topics, when a topic comes up, it should NOT be discarded for fear of where it may lead. If that is the way it is going to be (especially in the "General Discussion" forum), then it is no longer imteresting to visit, and that is where I am at now.The topics here have become very uninteresting. I rarely post and my visits are fewer. Maybe its me, but I just don't find coming to the board enjoyable anymore! I will continue to lurk, but not participate as much.

VDJ



Well said and I agree. You haven't seen me much on here in a long time,lol.

I refuse to visit or be a big part of a board whose political and religious views are opposite of mine. I can argue for a while, but it wears me out.


Funny, you don't refuse to be part of a society where the majority of people have political and religious views opposite of yours. And this site is about martial arts primarily. You could just talk about that stuff unless you just don't like associating with people who don't view things the same way as you (even when discussing unrelated stuff to religion and politics). No one makes you argue that stuff so why complain? And how do you know some of your views might not be wrong? You could learn something. It's intellectual dishonesty and insecurity to refuse to not be open to other views and questioning of your own. Dogma isn't a tenet of any martial art I know. I mean no offense by any of this, you're a good guy but such an attitude isn't conducive to learning or developing good friendships. Everyone will differ from you at least somewhat on those things. I'm very non-religious and very liberal on a lot of things, yet we've had good discussions on the martial arts and on our commonalities as soldiers, why does religious and political differences have to get in the way of that?


Edited by Stormdragon (04/13/11 04:58 AM)
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#432067 - 04/13/11 10:00 AM Re: Censorship of the board [Re: Stormdragon]
iaibear Offline
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Registered: 08/24/05
Posts: 1304
Loc: upstate New York
<< I'm very non-religious and very liberal on a lot of things, yet we've had good discussions on the martial arts and on our commonalities as soldiers, why does religious and political differences have to get in the way of that? >>

I enjoy your opinions, Stormy, and BrianS', as well. I feel his gripe is not with the subject matter as much as the fact that 'discussion' itself is getting limited. We have all had dandy discussions about Martial Arts on the Martial Arts forum. This is the General Talk forum. I would hate to see it gelded.

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#432068 - 04/13/11 10:18 AM Re: Censorship of the board [Re: Cord]
BrianS Offline
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Loc: Northwest Arkansas
Originally Posted By: Cord
Originally Posted By: BrianS

I refuse to visit or be a big part of a board whose political and religious views are opposite of mine. I can argue for a while, but it wears me out.


With respect Brian, this is precisely why the rules on religious and political discussion exist - so that people need not feel excluded, and can share their excellent martial art knowledge and experience in an environment devoid of unnecessary factors that focus on our differences, not our bond in the love of the arts.

If you think about it, the people on here that offered you heartfelt support and friendship during your troubles, are now the liberals and heathens you no longer feel inclined to interact with. That only came about because of the experiment to relax the rules on religion and politics frown




Yes, that's very true, but when I spoke my religious views I was mocked and attacked. I'm not putting myself out there for that anymore.
Martial arts is not my primary motivation for life, it's not a priority, just a priveledge I enjoy. My religious views (if you want to call them that) are my priority. I don't like political discussions at all though.
i'm not saying I don't like you guys or I'm better than you guys, you all know me better than that.
I'm saying that when the site got involved in politics and religion, the more liberal mods took that over. I'm not comfortable with that, so why subject myself to bickering with friends?
The site took a turn for the worst when:
1. politics and religion were unleashed
2. they changed the format and now it's hard to look at and navigate
3. advertisements pasted all over........really....
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#432071 - 04/13/11 01:30 PM Re: Censorship of the board [Re: BrianS]
Cord Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/13/05
Posts: 11399
Loc: Cambridge UK.
Originally Posted By: BrianS
[ Yes, that's very true, but when I spoke my religious views I was mocked and attacked. I'm not putting myself out there for that anymore.


Again, this is the problem with religious discussion, faith is so intrinsic to who we are, that to question someone's religion, seems to be to question the validity of the person themselves. You and I locked horns on this very subject, but it was certainly never my goal or intent to mock or attack you. You are someone I respect and like greatly.

Quote:
when the site got involved in politics and religion, the more liberal mods took that over. I'm not comfortable with that


And you must acknowledge that hardline, somewhat literal christian interperetation of life can put forward views on cultures, and orientations that present an unwelcoming environment for a majority of global internet users who may otherwise wish to share in the site.

Again, this highlights why religion and politics have been so heavily censored on the site - martial arts discussion is just that, and under the rules, a westboro baptist, a muslim, a homosexual and an atheist should be able to discuss their insight and passion for the arts on equal terms. That was the goal of the site when the rules were set.
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#432072 - 04/13/11 01:33 PM Re: Censorship of the board [Re: Cord]
Zombie Zero Offline
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I think I'd ban a WBC member on sight, just on general principle, and for the good of this site.

(they're known litigation baiters)
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#432074 - 04/13/11 01:47 PM Re: Censorship of the board [Re: Zombie Zero]
Cord Offline
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Registered: 01/13/05
Posts: 11399
Loc: Cambridge UK.
Originally Posted By: Zombie Zero
I think I'd ban a WBC member on sight, just on general principle, and for the good of this site.

(they're known litigation baiters)


Was just used as an extreme for purpose of making the point - and I would also say that, providing a WBC member respected the rules of the site, we would never know they were a member of that church, and could just talk martial arts, the purpose of the site in the first place.
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#432077 - 04/13/11 03:06 PM Re: Censorship of the board [Re: Zombie Zero]
BrianS Offline
Higher rank than you
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 5959
Loc: Northwest Arkansas
Originally Posted By: Zombie Zero
I think I'd ban a WBC member on sight, just on general principle, and for the good of this site.

(they're known litigation baiters)


I think I'd tie them to a cactus and kick them in the junk until they pass out, then I'd shoot em. wink
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#432078 - 04/13/11 03:07 PM Re: Censorship of the board [Re: Cord]
BrianS Offline
Higher rank than you
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 5959
Loc: Northwest Arkansas
Originally Posted By: Cord
Originally Posted By: BrianS
[ Yes, that's very true, but when I spoke my religious views I was mocked and attacked. I'm not putting myself out there for that anymore.


Again, this is the problem with religious discussion, faith is so intrinsic to who we are, that to question someone's religion, seems to be to question the validity of the person themselves. You and I locked horns on this very subject, but it was certainly never my goal or intent to mock or attack you. You are someone I respect and like greatly.

Quote:
when the site got involved in politics and religion, the more liberal mods took that over. I'm not comfortable with that


And you must acknowledge that hardline, somewhat literal christian interperetation of life can put forward views on cultures, and orientations that present an unwelcoming environment for a majority of global internet users who may otherwise wish to share in the site.

Again, this highlights why religion and politics have been so heavily censored on the site - martial arts discussion is just that, and under the rules, a westboro baptist, a muslim, a homosexual and an atheist should be able to discuss their insight and passion for the arts on equal terms. That was the goal of the site when the rules were set.



I don't have to acknowledge anything, but I likeand respect you too Cord. grin
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#432080 - 04/13/11 04:49 PM Re: Censorship of the board [Re: BrianS]
Stormdragon Offline
Who Dares Wins
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Registered: 08/05/04
Posts: 3409
Loc: Salem, OR
I like your thinking Brian, but I'd rather drop them into the middle of Baghdad with "I LOVE THE USA AND JESUS" tattooed to their backs (no shirt on).
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#432311 - 05/05/11 03:46 PM Re: Censorship of the board [Re: Stormdragon]
Reiki Offline
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Registered: 05/30/02
Posts: 3400
Loc: MiddleEarth
The reason the site is managed by Mods is so that it doesn't deteriorate into a slanging match about xyz political/religion/whatever and so that it more or less stays on topic - which of course is Martial Arts.

The site is a world wide thing and is not limited to citizens of USA. I for one have no idea what most of you are talking about in the political side of things, have no idea what the US constitution is and don't actually care or are interested in it.

Lets try to keep it on the Martial arts theme with occasional diversions into whatever you like but cut out the verbal slanging matches! wink
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