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#431569 - 02/17/11 10:57 PM Tactical question - Front kick to head.
creative Offline
Member

Registered: 04/26/04
Posts: 401
Loc: UK
Not been on here in ages, but thought I'd get your guy oppinion on the front kick to the head. (ala anderson/segal grin)

So I've seen this practiced (and practiced it myself) and it seems one of those techniques where a person may hold two opposing views.

View A - It is a technique not worth the risk of using as it:
Leaves you vulnerable to a take down
Is low percentage

View B. - It is a valuable technique as:
If it lands, it's seems highly likely to stop your opponent

I was curious as to your views.

As a side, does Silvas kick add weight to View B? Or does the lack of previous KO's of this nature in MMA (to my [narrow] knowledge) add weight to View A?
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"Its only pain, it wont hurt you"

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#431570 - 02/18/11 01:23 AM Re: Tactical question - Front kick to head. [Re: creative]
Stormdragon Offline
Who Dares Wins
Professional Poster

Registered: 08/05/04
Posts: 3409
Loc: Salem, OR
I think it's a fast, powerful kick that is not telegraphed too much, I think a lot of guys are just simply afraid to use it against anyone with decent takedowns so they don't even try. I make it work all the time. I use it nearly as much as my low round kick and it almost never gets caught. It's all in the set up really and making sure you pull it back quick. guys get toldby coaches "oh don't do it you'll get taken down." so they don't even train it much and then they do get taken down when they try it because they haven't developed it. Works fine though. Once it hits their face, few guys will actually react quick enough and regain their composure in time to catch the leg, it's a bit awkwar catching a front kick anyway.
_________________________
Member of DaJoGen MMA school under Dave Hagen and Team Chaos fight team under Denver Mangiyatan and Chris Toquero, ran out of Zanshin Martial Arts in Salem Oregon: http://www.zanshinarts.org/Home.aspx,

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#431571 - 02/18/11 02:50 AM Re: Tactical question - Front kick to head. [Re: Stormdragon]
Matakiant Offline
Member

Registered: 02/08/11
Posts: 120
If you want to stop someone with a real front KICK, not a push that most people practice.. Just hit them in the groin or under the rib cage.

I don't like head hunting techniques with legs very much ;P

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#431575 - 02/18/11 04:32 AM Re: Tactical question - Front kick to head. [Re: Matakiant]
Stormdragon Offline
Who Dares Wins
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Registered: 08/05/04
Posts: 3409
Loc: Salem, OR
Can't use a groin shot in the cage. And how does hitting the balls or ribs automatically mean it wont be more of a push? I can kick a guy plenty hard in the face. I don't think they will say it's a push.
_________________________
Member of DaJoGen MMA school under Dave Hagen and Team Chaos fight team under Denver Mangiyatan and Chris Toquero, ran out of Zanshin Martial Arts in Salem Oregon: http://www.zanshinarts.org/Home.aspx,

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#431576 - 02/18/11 04:38 AM Re: Tactical question - Front kick to head. [Re: Stormdragon]
Matakiant Offline
Member

Registered: 02/08/11
Posts: 120
I don't deal with the cage I deal with real life m8. Though I do see it's in the MMA forum so I do apologize for my blissful ignorance!

Even from a cage fighting viewpoint I don't see it as a great idea, unless you train it to be good and sharp like how Andy Hug threw his axe kicks around with devastating effect.

By the push comment I mean more of many Karate schools that practice the mae geri as a push just like Muay Thai fighters for example....

Let me find a nice youtube example of what I mean as my terminology and speechcraft are not of prime quality.

This is a prime example of what I mean, I do hope posting a youtube linky is allowed :P

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FvTJA0VcH0w

That is a prime example of a push NOT a kick and most styles train this as a mae GERI or front kick..


Edited by Matakiant (02/18/11 04:40 AM)

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#431577 - 02/18/11 05:40 AM Re: Tactical question - Front kick to head. [Re: Matakiant]
Stormdragon Offline
Who Dares Wins
Professional Poster

Registered: 08/05/04
Posts: 3409
Loc: Salem, OR
The Muay thai front kick is not a snapping motion like that, it's a thrust. You're not supposed to use much knee motion at all, just hip thrust.
And we (in muay thai) use it both as a defensive push (most often) or range finder, and an offensive weapon for doing damage (more of a horizontal stomp at that point).

And a snap kick (like in the video) is not a push. Don't use video examples where the guy throws a kick against air, that doesn't tell you anything about the power of the kick, whether it's a push or not. No one with any common sense would throw a hard kick like that against nothing, great way to blow out the knee.

Push kicks are very useful in fighting, just as useful as a power kick. They set up other things, help you gauge distance, keep an overly aggressive opponent back, etc. Not every strike or kick needs to be thrown with full committment and power. Sometimes that's just a waste of energy imo, because, with kicks especially, fully committed blows often don't help you flow into more attacks and you may well miss entirely. Apparently they work, muay thai is about as tough of striking competition as it gets. Far harder than about 99% of street fights. If you can fight there or in the cage you can fight on the street (not including dealign with weapons or more than one guy). Most "street fighters" couldn't fight their way out of a wet paper bag. The no ruels nature of it isn't a big deal either, anything they can do I can do, it's not hard to stick a figner in some thugs eyes.

For curiosity sake, how abotu a video showing the kind of kick you recommend..
_________________________
Member of DaJoGen MMA school under Dave Hagen and Team Chaos fight team under Denver Mangiyatan and Chris Toquero, ran out of Zanshin Martial Arts in Salem Oregon: http://www.zanshinarts.org/Home.aspx,

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#431578 - 02/18/11 08:45 AM Re: Tactical question - Front kick to head. [Re: Stormdragon]
Matakiant Offline
Member

Registered: 02/08/11
Posts: 120
I know the Muay Thai kick is different quite a lot, but the general body position is the same. The difference that bothers me is that many karate teachers teach that snapping kick as a kick while Muay Thai trainers I know teach it as a push for mostly the purposes you explained in your post

The problem is that with those ''push kicks'' you wont stop anyone running on you or deal enough damage to stop someone determined to hurt you.. The problem is the motion your pushing your back towards your rear, the problems with that should be obvious to anyone..

''hollow'' backs are the problem they reduce the power & stability of techniques, I assure you the way I've been taught to perform a front kick without hollowing the back is times more powerful and requiring no more effort than the snapping kick.

And I would ask what is your experience with street fighting.. Yes full contact competitions like Muay Thai are worlds apart from point spar karate matches and so on, but you can NEVER compare a ring to the real world

Even if the fighters are tougher and can do all the things they can't do in the ring, in real life the difference is they wont and there's a timed round and it's a match you're not going to storm at someone in a match you'll work out there weaknesses hunt for points etc.. The difference to real life is worlds apart and the main difference really is that usually if you get in a dangerous situation in real life it's probably vs multiple opponents.

I'll look for an example of what I consider ''good'' later, though I know I haven't previously found good examples on youtube.

Also I think we're derailing the thread lol if you want we can continue this in PMs smile.


Edited by Matakiant (02/18/11 08:50 AM)

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#431580 - 02/18/11 11:05 AM Re: Tactical question - Front kick to head. [Re: Matakiant]
MattJ Offline
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Prolific

Registered: 11/25/04
Posts: 15634
Loc: York PA. USA
I use the front kick in sparring all the time, with some success.
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#431584 - 02/18/11 04:51 PM Re: Tactical question - Front kick to head. [Re: MattJ]
Stormdragon Offline
Who Dares Wins
Professional Poster

Registered: 08/05/04
Posts: 3409
Loc: Salem, OR
My street fighting experience? Why does that matter, what's the difference between a guy moving in on you hard (say during a punching blitz) in training and a guy moving in on your hard on the street (most likely swinging like a drunk idiot and hitting nothing)? Force is force, no matter where it's at. If you must know, I've been in around a dozen fights give or take on the street, and by far the hardest fighting I've done was against MMA fighters, KyoKushinkai fighters, and Thai Boxers, not on the street.

The last time I fought someone it was a 280 lbs. guy coming at me like a madman trying to grab me. I stepped back slightly, threw one of those "push kicks" and it broke a rib. From there I was in the clear to throw a punch that ended it.


The harder they come, the more damage my "push kick" will do. Remember all actions have an equal and opposite reaction. When they make contact, all that energy they send forward is goign right back through my foot into whatever I kick. All the weight driven into the groun on my other foot goes right back through and into them.
You say trained fighters "could" do dirty stuff but won't? Which is wrong because in my other fight I did just that yet I train in mma. Training in a combat sport doesn't somehow mean you can't use dirty stuff, I don't know where you get that idea. We may not default to that sort of thing (which is good) but we can and often do use those options.
You say you don't storm at someone in a match. I do but not at first, I time it right and storm in with straights, Vitor style. We train that all the time. We don't jsut storm in randomly and in chaotic fashion like a brawler because IT DOESNT WORK (caps added for emphasis not to be rude). A guy storms at me on the street chances are 9 out of ten tiems, I'll see it a mile away and he's going right down. If natural brawling instincts were actually effective people wouldn't bother to train mma, but in reality fightign an untrained brawler is like fighting a 12 year old girl most of the time. Unless they have a huge size advantage at which point I'm running either way.

Now multiple attackers is another situation altogether, one in which I recommend getting away fast unless you have a gun.
_________________________
Member of DaJoGen MMA school under Dave Hagen and Team Chaos fight team under Denver Mangiyatan and Chris Toquero, ran out of Zanshin Martial Arts in Salem Oregon: http://www.zanshinarts.org/Home.aspx,

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#431585 - 02/18/11 06:59 PM Re: Tactical question - Front kick to head. [Re: Stormdragon]
Matakiant Offline
Member

Registered: 02/08/11
Posts: 120
By ''not doing'' them I meant not doing them in the cage, since that was what you were talking about to begin with.

The difference is that in a controlled enviornment you know there are rules and relative safety, if you truly spar with such high intensity as you seem to imply to then the only difference would be the lack of that fear you would face when being attacked outside the ring, dojo.

And ''I do but not at first'' is exactly the point in a competition both fighters seek each others openings and have many seconds, even minutes to time their attack.

In a ''real life'' (I don't like to use that term since being punched in the face or gut with or without a glove is always very real) situation you at best have a few seconds... The only warning you get is from the rowdy drunk who wants to pick a fight and comes under your nose to push it.

Yes multiple attackers is indeed different but self defense expects no warning and multiple opponents. Your example of breaking someones rib is just that an example (plus there's a big difference if your using the Muay Thai technique) you can put potentially enough force in those snap kicks but why do something one way when there's a better way? At this point I'll get back to you when I have some good examples English is not my native so explaining the technique would be very hard for me and I'd probably make a mistake or two.

Also 12 year old girls is stretching it far yes drunks are drunks but there's also people who are very good at fighting and ''untrained'' brawlers are often better than many trained fighters with years of practice - though almost never better than someone who practice a full contact style.

I also apologise for my overuse of '' ... '' I hope my use of them is understood not taken as sarcasm.

But on topic yes you could use the front kick to hit someone in the head.. I don't think it's a good idea to try it, it could be a good idea if you have trained it a lot and can angle your front kick ugh another thing I'd have a hard time explaining in English.

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