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#431032 - 12/02/10 07:45 PM Re: WARNING! Very stupid beginner question! [Re: Th3_Pun1sH3R]
Prizewriter Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 10/23/05
Posts: 2573
I see where you are coming from, and certainly I've seen what your talking about in Neijia systems (Taijiquan and Baguazhang specifically) but in my modest experience with Aikido, I can't say that anyone I've ever met was able to effectively use their training for power generation relating to punching and kicking. I'm not saying it can't be done, but I've never met or heard of anyone doing it in Aikido.

More to the point, here is a quote attributed to Morihei Ueshiba I've come across a few times:

Kicking leaves you momentarily on one foot, and for that moment you are in a very weak position. If you were to be swept off your feet, you would be finished. This is why lifting your feet off the ground is crazy.

If it did come from O Sensei (and I've never seen or read of him kicking anyone lol) then clearly he indicates he wasn't a fan of kicking in Aikido and didn't see a need for it. Although this is speculative I haven't came across anything where he advocated kicking or claimed that Aikido training would allow you to generate powerful kicking techniques.

Once again I should say I'm not claiming it can't be done, it's just I've never heard of anyone using their Aikido that way. Indeed there are people who claim that most training methods of modern Aikido aren't anywhere near what they use to be in terms of body conectiveness and power generation/absorption. I'm not in a position to comment on that.

I would say though that one of the reasons I left my Aikido class was once I saw (and felt) the power methods and body conectivity of Taiji and Bagua teachers I realized that my Aikido was missing an awful lot of what it claimed it could do.
_________________________
"Let your food be your medicine, and your medicine be your food" Hippocrates.

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#431033 - 12/02/10 09:13 PM Re: WARNING! Very stupid beginner question! [Re: Prizewriter]
Th3_Pun1sH3R Offline
Newbie

Registered: 08/20/08
Posts: 8
Loc: Earth
The key points of that "quote" (I'm not sure that is the exact quote either) are "momentarily" and "IF you were to be...". That's a small moment and a big if.

It's not to suggest that you should never or that it can't be done. There is a story in Gozo Shioda's book Aikido Shugyo, where he recounts an incident where a US soldier was involved in a challenge of sorts, and his response was to kick him in the stomach.

There are many ways to teach and learn the sorts of things you mentioned, not necessarily that one way is better than another. But I would tend to agree, it is less explicitly taught in Aikido than, say, in the CMA.

By the same token, not all taiji (or bagua or xingyi) are equal. The majority of your average garden variety taiji suffers from the same issues and shortcomings as aikido.

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#431036 - 12/03/10 07:45 AM Re: WARNING! Very stupid beginner question! [Re: Th3_Pun1sH3R]
Prizewriter Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 10/23/05
Posts: 2573
Originally Posted By: Th3_Pun1sH3R
By the same token, not all taiji (or bagua or xingyi) are equal. The majority of your average garden variety taiji suffers from the same issues and shortcomings as aikido.




Agree 100% on that. When I said I left Aikido for Taiji, it was only after meeting 3 different Taiji teachers. The first 2, IMO, didn't "have it", and they certainly didn't seem to be able to teach it judging by their students. The 3rd teacher was much better in terms of his know-how and ability.
_________________________
"Let your food be your medicine, and your medicine be your food" Hippocrates.

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#431050 - 12/04/10 09:14 PM Re: WARNING! Very stupid beginner question! [Re: Prizewriter]
Kathryn Offline
Member

Registered: 09/24/09
Posts: 262
Loc: Washington, DC
Originally Posted By: Prizewriter
I see where you are coming from, and certainly I've seen what your talking about in Neijia systems (Taijiquan and Baguazhang specifically) but in my modest experience with Aikido, I can't say that anyone I've ever met was able to effectively use their training for power generation relating to punching and kicking. I'm not saying it can't be done, but I've never met or heard of anyone doing it in Aikido.

More to the point, here is a quote attributed to Morihei Ueshiba I've come across a few times:

Kicking leaves you momentarily on one foot, and for that moment you are in a very weak position. If you were to be swept off your feet, you would be finished. This is why lifting your feet off the ground is crazy.

If it did come from O Sensei (and I've never seen or read of him kicking anyone lol) then clearly he indicates he wasn't a fan of kicking in Aikido and didn't see a need for it. Although this is speculative I haven't came across anything where he advocated kicking or claimed that Aikido training would allow you to generate powerful kicking techniques.


Whether or not O Sensei said that, it is something that is common to the vast majority of Japanese arts. I think karate is the only one that employs kicking (let me know if I've forgotten one). Otherwise the footwork is very solid and the 'budo way' of walking is to keep the feet very close to the ground while stepping. It's almost a shuffle but more deliberate and does takes practice.
_________________________
Be nice, until it's time to not be nice.

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#431054 - 12/05/10 06:23 PM Re: WARNING! Very stupid beginner question! [Re: Kathryn]
Th3_Pun1sH3R Offline
Newbie

Registered: 08/20/08
Posts: 8
Loc: Earth
The foot shuffle isn't peculiar to JMA, nor is kicking the sole domain of karate.

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#435447 - 09/10/12 08:22 AM Re: WARNING! Very stupid beginner question! [Re: Th3_Pun1sH3R]
iaibear Offline
Veteran

Registered: 08/24/05
Posts: 1304
Loc: upstate New York
I was reading older posts to see if a question I have had for years might be covered by it.

My original Aikido instructor, due to rapid turnover in his neighborhood, "taught the test". We drilled the techniques required for testing until they were all firmly in motor memory. After that, if the opportunity presented itself, we explored variations. That dojo closed when the ceiling fell.

The second dojo I attended was "traditional" in that the teacher demonstrated variations and only variations. Students about to be tested would ask older students to practice with them. At testing time they would use their own "best guess" or the older student's "best guess" which he, in turn, had gotten his version from a still older student's "best guess".

Is there a "right" way to do techniques in Aikido?

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#435475 - 09/23/12 08:24 PM Re: WARNING! Very stupid beginner question! [Re: iaibear]
Ronin1966 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 04/26/02
Posts: 3116
Loc: East Coast, United States
Hello iaibear:

Depending on where in upstate NY you were, I'd suggest Konigsberg sensei to explore more deeply such things. Decades ago I was a seminar student of his... and was never confused despite that Aiki was never my practice.

Any teacher whether Cooking, Aikido, Tode, it does not matter (IMHO), however you present your information is critically important. Haphazard, random you get a very different understanding than highly structured.

Learning, doing, then doing against full resistance are very different "creatures". There are certain structural requirements/positions regardless of the specific technique.

Two, three inches different and anybody can still make X technique work. But you have to use other different pieces for that to occur. The physical structure does not change. The way one achieves them might.

Alter the timing, the angle, the breathing of a technique, and there are all kinds of nuances, subtlety. Start somewhere, learn one SINGLE method of it... learn something really well, and different nuances, subtleties are discovered...

Too many variations, we don't truly learn...
IMHO...
Jeff

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#435478 - 09/24/12 11:16 PM Re: WARNING! Very stupid beginner question! [Re: Ronin1966]
iaibear Offline
Veteran

Registered: 08/24/05
Posts: 1304
Loc: upstate New York
<< Too many variations, we don't truly learn...
IMHO...
Jeff >>

That has been my opinion as well. Thank you for answering.

My current sensei drills the moves until we get them in motor memory.

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#435563 - 11/18/12 01:14 AM Re: WARNING! Very stupid beginner question! [Re: iaibear]
Ronin1966 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 04/26/02
Posts: 3116
Loc: East Coast, United States
Hello iaibear:

<<Thank you for answering.

Pleased I could help, brother.


<<My current sensei drills the moves until we get them in motor memory.

Given muscle memory begins after 10,000 repetitions by the latest accountings, sounds like a pleasant long study -badly supressed grins-.

Jeff

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#435596 - 12/14/12 10:36 PM Re: WARNING! Very stupid beginner question! [Re: Prizewriter]
Ronin1966 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 04/26/02
Posts: 3116
Loc: East Coast, United States
Hello Prizewriter:

Having experienced some ridicilously experienced instructors of Aiki, even for brief seconds I would offer that spend enough time at ANY ONE THING, you can be very effective with that practice. Cooking, Aiki, Karate take your pick they are the same

The whole problem with the "kicking as a mistaken" idea argument is two fold. Kicking or moving in any manner have the same problem, you are by definition unbalanced. Can you kick or move effectively of course, but the fundamental concern is similar. Can we be effective doing so?

Read an article not long ago which proposed the martial arts "magical feats" have very little to do with magic and have everything to do with millions of repetitions under all manner of circumstances, nuances, subtlities.

I too am not a fan of many flavors of Aiki for similar reasons (ie dizzy, rolling too much, joint suffering, etc.) but technically it is a very high level and subtle art. To be effective demands insane time. No different from any other practices IMHV.

I like the IMA's as the top layers of the proverbial practice cake. Start with something far simpler mechanically, Judo, wrestling, with time head to the karate, taekwan practices, then later on explore the neijia, the internally geared practices. Begin with the nuances, subtle practices, its risky one could become etheral, "love bead" practitioner.

Are they effective of course, but will anybody understand it, if you begin with the universal energy(ies). Very unlikely IMHO...

Jeff

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