I would agree with Stormy on that. There may be a few exceptions, but as rule, more ranks = less quality.

Rank in almost all arts above 1st (3rd at most) degree black is political or ceremonial. If it isn't, then it was up until then.

Sorry, but how do you rank spiritual enlightenment?

What dan/sash was Ghandi? and would it be uniformly bestowed across all arts and schools.

The only thing rank is a reliable indicator of in a traditionaly structured school is time served. This is on the basis that criteria for skill and ability cannot be judged to be uniform from art to art to art, org. to org, or even school to school.
The one thing that is uniform is that the longer you train, the more you will test, and the higher rank you will achieve, even if an average student.

Simple logic. Greater quantity=lower quality. Really though, what's the point of those additional ranks? Why do I need an nth degree black belt to denote that I contributed some philosphical thing? Take 2 BB's, one 1st degree one 3rd degree. Both have the same amount of time in training but the latter art has more ranks. Does that 3rd degree BB prove that he has done more for the art or learned more than the 1st degree? If there are more belts than each belt most likely will require less to achieve so someone with a "higher" belt in one art may know less and be less mature than someone with a "lower" belt in another art.

If your art creates a belt for every spiritual/philosophical/monetary contribution than it just becoems showboating. I know what I can do, what I know and am capable of, why do I need this belt or that belt?

I was thinking of going for my 2nd dan, but I don't see the point, especially at my age. I might as well just train and, hopefully, find a few friends to do it with.

it seems like most of us just dont understand the concepts of true martial arts,time spent traing,experiencing,various situations,adapting to all new concepts with our open minds,creating and developing tecniques that superceded our own previously thought of and utilised talents,thats how we grow and become better tommorrow than we are today,Gene Lebell is that man,and deserves the ranking that hes been givin,to this day,even at his current age and health is still possibly the most feared combatant in the world,he earned his ranks the real way,fighting anyone at any time,thanks

Well, it's not my art, is it? It is not for me to go to Japan and tell them to dismantle their traditional structures that have been in place for several hundred years. If you would like to do so, they might enjoy explaining it to you. In fact, they probably would explain it to you in most earnest fashion, and ignore your snide commentary.

I don't know what you mean about showboating. In Japan, as in many other places, rank isn't worn, and it isn't discussed. You would never know someone's rank unless someone told you, because they won't tell you personally.

But having seen the dedication and commitment of the teachers that have achieved these upper ranks is personally humbling. I will never achieve that level for sure, but can benefit from being around those who have.

Kathryn

Hello Kathryn:

Rank is a public acknowledgement of skill between two people. The one who recieves it and the one who issues it to them. Beyond that what is the point IYV?

Do you take pride in your "non-rank"? Or is it truly pure curiousity you are expressing... without emoticons it is difficult to tell ; )

Jeff

Hello Kathryn:

Points of clarification ???

<<dismantle their traditional structures that have been in place for several hundred years.

"Menkyo" ranking system indeed has been around a decent amount of time... No easily visable (external) signs via the Menkyo ranking system of Japanese Ryu. The belt system (Kano's kyudan ranking) is essentially only a hundred years old.

Which one were you suggesting he alter even though he probably was being sarchastic/snide (?) to some extent. External signs would not be ancient by any stretch.

<<rank isn't worn, and it isn't discussed.

Classical ~bujutsu~ methods have no rank indicators, but "modern" budo arts and practices certainly do. But not having been to asia in a long time, I ask earnestly...

Consider are the "candy cane" belts then solely worn for PR photos, large annual events, or by those instructors specifically (solely???) with an American audience? I had this very debate with a former peer and could not convince him of that (IMHV) "truth".

In blunt terms, if a teacher/instructor wears such rank (eg the red and white belt rank)... is that only self-stimulation or is there cultural precident for permitting or even encouraging same... ?

Would the Ryukyu Kingdom (Okinawa) differ from Japan in that regard? Or does a total lack of "public display" depend on a particular culture for its appropriateness (or its lack) you think?

Jeff

If I was rich I would in a heart beat. Don't get me wrong, I have nothing agaisnt traditional martial arts OR the belt ranking system (my mma school has a very good TMA school that uses the same building I train with their students, and it's excellent. Their head instructor is a rd degree BB and he's better than some 5th degrees I've seen). I have a problem with the abuse and trivial use of belt ranks. I still think it's showboating in most cases. In Japan where according to you it's not worn or discussed, then I must ask what's the point? It becomes more a political/ego thing than a practical need it seems (numerous belts that is). Belts are pieces of cloth you can buy, they mean very little imo. Can they be useful? Yes. Can they mean something? Sure. But it's relative and not as important as what you can do, what you know, and what you can teach.

A guy once walked into Team Quest and asked if Randy Couture was a BB. He's not and said as much. That guy decided to go down the street because he knew a school with a black belt and he wouldn't train with anyone else. Now you tell me, what's the problem in that situation?

My comments were critical but that's different than being sarcastic or snide. I was completely serious with everything I said. I don't believe in giving equal acceptance of all approaches. I can make people do anything but I have every right to discuss, criticize and debate an issue. That's what a forum is for.

If you say that you were not being sarcastic, I'll accept that. But I think that having knowledge of and respect for all cultures is very important. In that spirit, a bit of information:

You don't like belts, neither do I. Most traditional arts in Japan don't use belts. Everyone wears similar clothing. The dan rankings are signified with scrolls that are hand calligraphed.

What is the point? Dan rankings are a structural aid to training. These dan rankings signify your standing within the school but also your responsibilities. Anyone below your dan ranking, you are obligated to help and teach. Anyone above your dan ranking, you are expected to learn from. The highest ranked person is the founder or current owner of the art.

Is it an ego thing? Throwing attitude towards those who rank below you is the fast way to stop your progression, because there is a certain point in each art beyond which your technical skill will not take you. Throwing attitude to those above your ranking, well, you can imagine what might happen there.

I can see that there are problems with rank inflation and the Western obsession with belts. But this is no indictment of the traditional system.

Kathryn



As for how this relates to MMA and the American obsession with belts, or some school inflating their rankings -- it's a debate I tend to shy away from.