I agree that grades can become ego inflating. At the same time, something like Menkyo Kaiden is extremly important for Koryu arts, because these arts mostly about preserving past traditions, and acheiving this rank means you are actually able to teach the entire system. It's a way of protecting against dilution. It's a bit like a ph.d. A ph.d can be ego inflating, but it still serves a very useful purpose in vouchsafing a persons ability to teach a subject.

Shironglang said:



I have to disagree here. Once you include the variable of 'time' then there can be drastic changes in context. In the case you outlined above, the confrontation between the 19th century and modern boxer would likely be decided by context (speed and power being equal). Specifically, whose training has better matched the context in which the techniques will be expressed? A 19th century boxer would likely whop a 20th century boxer under 19th century rules, and vis versa.

While any combat technique has always been physiologically possible, new techniques continue to form due to changes through time--context dictates what is trained, or what exists. For example, the invention of the pistol correlated to the invention of pistol diarming technique, and the same happend before (in terms of new techniques) (likely) when the sword was created, the knife, the spear, gloves, cassius etc.

Ah, but there you added the element of "rules"... If those are present, I agree with you; but were those two boxers to fight in a bar (either a 19th or 21st century one ), what I said still stands.
Besides, even if you take the evolution of context into account, some adjustments definitely have to be made but most core principles of sound tactics remain the same. A 19th century battlefield had little to do with an [n]-BC one, yet Napoleon became the immensely successful strategist he was by applying principles learnt from his extensive study of Hannibal, Scipio, Caesar etc. because whether you're shooting with a bow or a flintlock, or even attacking with spears and swords, an advantageous position remains an advantageous position. The difference is naturally even less significant when dealing with unarmed combat.


PS: the amazingly devious way Hannibal attacked Rome by undertaking an insane journey through Spain and Gaul, marching thousands of miles, crossing river Rhone and the Alps with his elephants, definitely deserves a 10th dan as far as I'm concerned (that even beats the brilliant "rope-a-dope" trick Ali used to win the "Rumble in the Jungle" against a stronger opponent). So does the no-less-brilliant and incredibly bold trick admiral Nelson used to beat Napoleon's fleet at Trafalgar, but I don't feel he deserves an 11th dan just because the battlefield he was dealing with had evolved compared to Hannibal's.

Therefore the sage holds in his embrace the one thing, of humility, and manifests it to all the world. He is free from self display, therefore he shines; from self-assertion, therefore he is distinguished; from self boasting, therefore his merit is acknowleged; from self complacency, therefore he acquires superiority.
It is because he is thus free from striving that therefore no-one in the world is able to strive with him.

I read this somewhere,, thought it may be relevant.

Cheers Kev.

As long as they can beat up 6 guys in under 10 seconds I;m fine with it (granting they can teach others to do that)
My instructor Dave tells a story about a guy who refused to train at Quest because Couture didn't have any belts and decided to train up the street at a place that "has a black belt". lol

I think that fighting techniques have improved over the past half century. Bruce Lee used Wing Chun and didn't have his kicks until he met TKD masters; before Chuck Norris competed, American karateka apparently didn't have the back kick, never mind the spinning kick; and many TKD practitioners in the 1970's didn't know self-defence.

So, yes, I do think fighting techniques have improved.

Just adding techniques like back kicks and spinning kicks does not mean improvement. More realistic and movement oriented training methods are improvements.

But thats just it, speed and power would not be equal.
I have a boxing training manual published in 1905, and it has some absolute gems in their, including:

'A good brisk morning walk will benefit a boxers wind'

'It is advisable for the pugilist to forego tobacco before the fight and between rounds'

'10 toe touches upon rising for the day keeps the body supple'


Sorry, but a modern boxer is more powerful, fitter, and more mobile than his 19th century counterpart.

And dont get me started on the evolution in the biomechanics of the footwork, stance, and punch technique from pugilism to modern boxing.

Modern technique may not be objectively better. Keep in mind that other striking systems like muay thai have some technical nuances that differ greatly from boxing in terms of footwork and stance, guard, etc. Both are considered effective though yes? You have to tweak things a bit when you go from no gloves or tiny glvoes to large gloves. Well, you don't have to but it's a good idea. Same with the rule set. Think about it, boxing has been around in some form or another for thousands of years, every culture has a form of fistfighting for sport. It doesn't make much sense to me that they would have sucked for all those thousands of years and then suddenly over a span of say 40 years became technical genuises. Granted we don't have movie footage of fighters going at it thousands of years ago but we do have lots of depictions and writings on the subject from those times.
Look at any boxer who enters mma (minus James Toney who has a tougbh time gettign past boxing apparently) and you'll see some little changes in virtually skill that boxing has. Also keep in mind, 10 gyms will show you 10 different ways to do everything in boxing.
Do agree on the strength, speed, and power thing.

But punching in Muay Thai is not a considered a primary technique. In the west, Muay Thai practitioners use punching much more than Thai's, for whom punching is not a priority. The stances and guard position reflect this, and not even the staunchest supporter of MT would argue that its punches are close to being as powerful as in western boxing.



To an extent, but effective power generation is effective power generation.



Its an evolution over 120 years, not 40, and it has come about through the glove issue you touched upon above. Boxing gloves were designed to protect the fists, not the oponents head, and so boxers have been able to develop punching power far beyond the tolerances of the naked hand. in doing this, the biomechanics of the techniques have changed dramaticaly from where they were in the 1800's, or any time before that.

Whilst there is no doubt that a modern boxer would damage his hands if throwing with that intensity without gloves, the actual techniques themselves remain the most effective for pure punching in a live environment, also the most efficient, spreading the effort throughout the body (old fashioned pugilism relied greatly on 'arm punching'), so with the refined guard, extra torso mobility, extra hip torque, and punching power measured to the limitations of the human hand, a modern boxer remains a harder target to hit, with tools allowing for harder punching, and conditioning that means they can punch harder for longer.



But we are talking about the evolution of boxing. Not application of boxing against other fighting styles. If you want to follow this element of your argument, then put Cain Velasquez in a pure boxing match against Kilitchko or Haye, and watch him get destroyed in under 3 rounds.



Not so. The basic principles of footwork, guard, and the punches thrown from them are taught uniformly as a foundation. Boxers take that training and adapt it to suit their strengths, and that is where the differences in style become apparent - its not that 5 different boxers are taught 5 different styles.

I always thought that 11th to 15th Dans were where you added your dan grades together, for example

6th Dan Shotokan
+ 4th Dan Wado Ryu
+ 4th Dan Shito Ryu
+ 2nd Dan Jujitsu
+ 1st Dan Judo
-----------------
= 17th Dan Soke Kaicho Kancho Grandmaster