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#428256 - 07/12/10 09:28 PM Re: MMA and Tae-Kwon-Do [Re: hotrice]
ITFunity Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/15/06
Posts: 2053
Originally Posted By: hotrice
when you guys say that olympic tkd revolutioned kicking, in what way. is it the chambering or the footwork. can you guys give specific examples.
Both! You see prior to the Olympic sport rules that came from the Jido kwan, TKD & tae Soo Do players competed under karate stop match point rules. There was grabbing, sweeping, low kicks & all kinds of hand techniques allowed to both the face & body. However to be different, some Koreans devised completely new rules that allowed only full contact kicking to the chest protector & head, with knockouts allowed. However only a ounch with the forefist was allowed & it was strictly limited to the chest protector. So you have to hast fast kicks & quick stepping if you were to score points.
So these new set of rules made revolution or evolutiion necessary if one was to score points. Therefore chambers of kicks were altered, like the turning kick to allow quicker reach to the target. Likewise new kicks were devloped, like downward kicks. Quick stepping & counter-kicking became needed as the sport changed into a counter-kicking one, where you waited for an opponent to kick so you could take advantage of them in motion, to exploit an opening so you could score.
Some don't realize this & think WTF sparring is boring. While it may have little action, it is a strategic cat & mouse game. Once to understand that, it is not boring, but a good strategy to watch, for some

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#430610 - 10/22/10 06:06 PM Re: MMA and Tae-Kwon-Do [Re: ITFunity]
TimmyJ Offline
Newbie

Registered: 10/22/10
Posts: 13
Loc: New Zealand
another major problem these martial arts (TWD, Karate) have the way their sparring is done. They are just not trained to go for 3 min rounds. Their whole mentality is ending the fight quickly. And in a real match you can't always win in a few seconds. If their opponent simply steps back they are left hanging because they are so committed to the attack.

Another issue they have is their punching game. Although they put a lot power into each punch they lack the ability to run a punching game. I have boxed in the past and am now doing WFT Taekwondo and their is such a massive difference in the punching game, they don't focus of rhythm and try to make every punch a knock-out with simply doesn't work in the ring and leaves you open. A boxer will try work to open the guard over time and set up of a big hit where at in TWD we are always going for that killer punch.

Also the guard, the TWD has a stupidly low guard. My instructor always gets mad at me because coming out of Muay Thai and boxing I'm so used to keeping my hands up around my head. The TWD punch leaves half the head exposed.

Kicks and punches are also left out in the air to long. If you watch any kind of ring based martial art (boxing, Muay Thai, MMA ect) they never leave their their punch out in the air very long. TWD does, which means their guard stays open to long.

Also they mainly kick with the foot and are used to blocking with the arm. If they were to block a Muay Thai low kick with their arm it WILL break. I have seen this happen and its not pretty.

But just some food for thought, Anderson Silva the current UFC middle weight champ is a Muay Thai fighter who also trained in TWD and you often see him replace the Muay Thai tep with a TWD side kick.
_________________________
Pain is weakness leaving the body
The more you sweat in the gym the less you bleed in battle

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#430620 - 10/23/10 12:13 PM Re: MMA and Tae-Kwon-Do [Re: TimmyJ]
Kimo2007 Offline
Veteran

Registered: 03/31/07
Posts: 1057
Quote:
They are just not trained to go for 3 min rounds.


Not saying your points are wrong, but they are very sweeping. Training varies greatly across schools and systems.
_________________________
Undefeated in all of Asia!

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#430625 - 10/24/10 01:15 AM Re: MMA and Tae-Kwon-Do [Re: Kimo2007]
TaekwonDoFan Offline
Member

Registered: 01/23/10
Posts: 271
Well, in a real fight, you're supposed to knock your opponent out with one or two blows, and that's definitely not 3 minutes. In fact, I understand that most street fights don't last more than 30 seconds.

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#430642 - 10/25/10 12:34 AM Re: MMA and Tae-Kwon-Do [Re: TaekwonDoFan]
TimmyJ Offline
Newbie

Registered: 10/22/10
Posts: 13
Loc: New Zealand
I have never seen a knockout being dealt in a street fight in a few blows. and if these fighters could then why don't they do it in the ring?

just a note: Most street fights last less than 30 sec because after the first clash most people realise who is better and bolt.
_________________________
Pain is weakness leaving the body
The more you sweat in the gym the less you bleed in battle

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#430654 - 10/25/10 09:15 AM Re: MMA and Tae-Kwon-Do [Re: TimmyJ]
Dereck Offline
Prolific

Registered: 10/04/04
Posts: 10413
Loc: Great White North
Originally Posted By: TimmyJ
I have never seen a knockout being dealt in a street fight in a few blows. and if these fighters could then why don't they do it in the ring?


I have seen fights end in a few blows in the street. For one, these guys are NOT fighters. They don't train as fighters. They fight with adrenalin highs and most times liquid courage. They feel they need to prove something and usually their reasons are immature and self serving. In a ring the majority of them would have their a$$es handed to them.

Quote:
just a note: Most street fights last less than 30 sec because after the first clash most people realise who is better and bolt.


So untrue. Having been an idiot who has fought in the street and now being one who has broken up fights while policing, this is not the case. Fights last 30 seconds or less because the adrenalin rush ends and they are EXHAUSTED. You ask them they think they've fought for 10 minuted or more. And in a lot of cases the bouncers and/or the police are on hand to break things up. I don't recall many incidences where people bolt as usually they have buddies coming to their rescue to either pick their sorry a$$es up off the ground or continuing to fight thus picking up where their friends left off.
_________________________
"IF I COME ... I'M BRINGING THE PAIN WITH ME"

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#430658 - 10/25/10 11:04 AM Re: MMA and Tae-Kwon-Do [Re: Dereck]
ITFunity Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/15/06
Posts: 2053
Originally Posted By: Dereck
Originally Posted By: TimmyJ
I have never seen a knockout being dealt in a street fight in a few blows. and if these fighters could then why don't they do it in the ring?


I have seen fights end in a few blows in the street. For one, these guys are NOT fighters. They don't train as fighters. They fight with adrenalin highs and most times liquid courage. They feel they need to prove something and usually their reasons are immature and self serving. In a ring the majority of them would have their a$$es handed to them.

Quote:
just a note: Most street fights last less than 30 sec because after the first clash most people realise who is better and bolt.


So untrue. Having been an idiot who has fought in the street and now being one who has broken up fights while policing, this is not the case. Fights last 30 seconds or less because the adrenalin rush ends and they are EXHAUSTED. You ask them they think they've fought for 10 minuted or more. And in a lot of cases the bouncers and/or the police are on hand to break things up. I don't recall many incidences where people bolt as usually they have buddies coming to their rescue to either pick their sorry a$$es up off the ground or continuing to fight thus picking up where their friends left off.
good points on both sides

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#430663 - 10/25/10 01:25 PM Re: MMA and Tae-Kwon-Do [Re: ITFunity]
Dereck Offline
Prolific

Registered: 10/04/04
Posts: 10413
Loc: Great White North
To further answer the original question, it all comes down to fighting and what is required to fight. In MMA to win you need solid basics that cover the whole gambit and by developing those you become a better fighter. If you don't you become one or two dimensional and that is too predictable. With only TKD basics you are predictable and incomplete.

Unfortunately martial arts like TKD are not all about the basics needed to fight MMA. They have phenomenal kicks but to fight MMA you don't necessarily need phenomenal kicks. Many fighters have had TKD training and can successfully use these skills along side others skills to become good fighters; such as with my own Instructor. However these days strictly coming into wanting to fight MMA, it makes more sense to learn from an exact game plan and structure that already has a winning formula, and that is not TKD. To be effective as a TKD MMA fighter you need so many other skills to fill the holes. It makes more sense to train MMA that covers the whole gambit. Sure your kicks may not be as good but that is always something later you can work to become greater at once you have established yourself as a good fighter.
_________________________
"IF I COME ... I'M BRINGING THE PAIN WITH ME"

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#430668 - 10/25/10 05:15 PM Re: MMA and Tae-Kwon-Do [Re: Dereck]
TimmyJ Offline
Newbie

Registered: 10/22/10
Posts: 13
Loc: New Zealand
Thats very true. But it also important to note that MMA is not complete in itself. If you just start learning MMA you have no solid grounding and just a basic knowledge in each aspect of the fight. I personally believe it is best to start with one martial art and then most into MMA once you are confident in your first martial art. For example having done boxing and Muay Thai and now learning TWD my stand up game is going to be better than someone who has just done MMA. However I will need to learn how to defend against takedowns and submissions once I go into the cage. So MMA is more the filler for the parts you don't know.

I think its best to see it was a brick wall. If the bricks are the more traditional martial arts and MMA is the mortar. You can build your wall with just bricks but without the mortar its not going to be very strong.

Thats how I see it atleast.

Also what I meant was bolt was it gets broken up or stopped somehow.
_________________________
Pain is weakness leaving the body
The more you sweat in the gym the less you bleed in battle

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#430678 - 10/26/10 12:17 AM Re: MMA and Tae-Kwon-Do [Re: TimmyJ]
Dereck Offline
Prolific

Registered: 10/04/04
Posts: 10413
Loc: Great White North
I used to believe the same thing Timmy but no longer do I. We are looking at this the wrong way. Traditional MA has been around for a long time and will be for years to come HOWEVER we are basing our learning on this premise. Let's take TKD for instance. They have forms, one-step sparring, sparring, self defense, board breaking, etc. If we go by the old thinking we should learn all of these and then add other stuff. I say NO, no longer do I believe that. Cut out all of the stuff that is not necessary and just do the meat of it. When you cut out all of the unnecessary you have room to learn other things ... and now you have MMA.

I learned TKD and BJJ as one art and it blended perfectly. We added stuff in such as throws, takedowns, stuff taking downs, knees, elbows, clinch, etc. To think if we would have stripped all of that other stuff and based it solely on what was needed strictly for fighting then it wouldn't be TKD but MMA, and that is what is happening now.

All MMA schools are teaching bits and pieces of other arts blended seamlessly together into one art. I think this is the best way to do it. You gain your solid based from this and then the areas you need to improve you work on those.

I am reminded of something my Instructor said. He said he could teach us good basics and in most cases basics will win the fight for you however to become BETTER you needed to train each skill. He said if you wanted to get better at punching then you needed to take boxing. If you wanted to get better at throws you needed to take Judo. If you wanted to get better at submissions then you needed to take BJJ. If you wanted to get better takedowns then take wrestling. Basically find the areas you need to work on them and then go and fine tune them.

If I was going to fight I would not take one art and train years at it and then fill the holes later. I would take an art such as MMA that has the game winning formula and then see where I lacked in skill and then seek out other MA to fine tune those skills. Forms are not needed for fighting. Board breaking, one-steps, all of that stuff is not needed for fighting. Fighting is needed for fighting and you will succeed better by taking MMA.

My Instructor was right, excellent base he gave us that when going to other schools served me well. When I did a short stint in Judo I was a head of the game. When I joined my last school of BJJ, Muay Thai and MMA I was a head of the game. But each of those schools could make me better and if I had perhaps cut away the "fat" from my original training and took that time to put into these other skills, I would be farther a head in the game; no doubt about it.

I'm in no way putting down Traditional MA however they have us brain washed to think we need all of it to become anything good. TMA have their place and I think are an excellent means for many people BUT not for somebody wanting to learn to fight. I would rather spend my time learning 10 things geared towards direct fighting then 10 things with only a couple of things geared towards fighting.

It is my opinion that if you took two people of equal learning skill, size, age, weight, etc. One took 5 years of TMA and one took 5 years of MMA. After the 5 years the MMA person would be a better fighter by leaps and bounds AND would be better able to handle them self in a life threatening situation. That by cutting the "fat" and learning the fundamentals of fighting they will be a better rounded martial artist. Because MMA is just another form of martial arts, nothing more then a different focus.
_________________________
"IF I COME ... I'M BRINGING THE PAIN WITH ME"

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