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#430040 - 09/19/10 09:45 PM TFT or Target focus Training
Stormdragon Offline
Who Dares Wins
Professional Poster

Registered: 08/05/04
Posts: 3409
Loc: Salem, OR
Is apparently what these two are doing:

I used to think this kind of thing was great training. Now I realize it generates a false sense of security. It's unfortunate people buy into thinking that this stuff will work. Tim Larkin should be ashamed of himself if this is what he teaches to be a prefered methods of drilling techniques. And the reliance on very defined reactions from the various techniques to lead into others is just asking for troubke. so often people don't react to a strike the way you would hope.
Sad sad sad...
Member of DaJoGen MMA school under Dave Hagen and Team Chaos fight team under Denver Mangiyatan and Chris Toquero, ran out of Zanshin Martial Arts in Salem Oregon:,

#430045 - 09/20/10 12:10 AM Re: TFT or Target focus Training [Re: Stormdragon]
drgndrew Offline
< a god, > a man.

Registered: 01/09/05
Posts: 599
Loc: Toowoomba, Qld, Australia
I'm not necessarily disagreeing with you, nor am I agreeing, but dude, I think we all need to remember not to judge a system by a single example of a single drill particularly from beginners. This is only their 4th session, it's clear they do not have the benefit of an instructor and are interpreting things from either a book or DVD. but at least they are doing something.

To be honest the reactions are better then a lot of stuff I see in some martial arts dojos, at least their not just standing there in a front stance holding their punch out like a statue. the reactions are typical reactions (even if the acting is pretty shoddy:)). It is always better to have a behavioral reaction to your action as compared to no reaction at all or even a purely physical reaction.

I don't know whether we can entirely blame Tim for the quality of the "demo", the lack of experience of the students would be a better bet

Oh P.S. I'm an independent instructor and as such I'm not affiliated with any organization (though independent, I do recommend and support Richard Dimitri and Senshido)

Edited by drgndrew (09/20/10 12:14 AM)
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#430046 - 09/20/10 01:10 AM Re: TFT or Target focus Training [Re: drgndrew]
Stormdragon Offline
Who Dares Wins
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Registered: 08/05/04
Posts: 3409
Loc: Salem, OR
Don't get me wrong, I definitely think this is better than nothing and better than a lot of what passes for self defense training in martial arts schools around the country. the reactions aren't bad, and it's good to have them internalized for fluid transition from attack to attack but very often people don't react the same or at all even and it's good to be able to storm through them anyway instead of freezing for a sec because them didn't react "properly". Granted like you said these two are new but it's about the same for all the other TFT vids I saw.

See here:

False sense of security in my opinion. It gets into the aliveness thing. What they're practicing isn't necessairly "bad" but it shouldn't be a big part of training. There should always be SOME level of resistance and give and take no matter what moves you're using. Even if it's just 25%. If the guy does what you expect great but if not, how are you going to react? A lot of this can't be practiced live anyway (like groin kicks). But if nothing else at least train so you're ready to keep going and moving to other options if one attack fails to accomplish what you're hoping for.

I always liked Kenpo because they went into detail on the "what if" scenarios. I don't train in that anymore but it wasn't bad at all.
Member of DaJoGen MMA school under Dave Hagen and Team Chaos fight team under Denver Mangiyatan and Chris Toquero, ran out of Zanshin Martial Arts in Salem Oregon:,

#430048 - 09/20/10 02:27 AM Re: TFT or Target focus Training [Re: Stormdragon]
Shi Ronglang Offline

Registered: 09/14/10
Posts: 91
Loc: Samarobriva, Gallia
I think that kind of thing can be a very good training tool, IF combined with a number of extra elements. It has the benefit of teaching you the fluency one should aim for, if at a reduced pace (which is a good place to begin), as opposed to doing the techniques full-speed and pausing/hesitating between them (as I see more often than not) which deconstructs the rythm and there goes your fluidity (hello robot-dancing...).

The way it should be done in my very humble opinion:
- practicing this exercise slowly, focusing on fluency of motion;
- once perfect smoothness has been achieved at a given speed, speed it up one notch - then work at that new speed until perfectly fluid again, and so on;
- on the side, practicing the same sequence of moves solo, full-speed;
- practicing each separate strike full-force on an appropriate target (bag, pad, focus-mitts, dummy...)
- even when the sequence can be done fluidly at full-speed, retain the slow version as an improvisation-training tool: go through it with uke deliberately acting unexpectedly at some point, and train on smoothly adapting to the new situation.

Keep in mind that although I believe to be fairly familiar with the way the human brain learns, my experience of teaching is NOT in the martial arts. Therefore I could very well be wrong. wink

Still, France's top karate master and leading authority in the field of M.A., Roland Habersetzer, has made kumite-kata (which is more or less similar to what we have here) the core of his teaching; and his methods were widely accalaimed, including in Japan. So I guess there must be some good to it. smile
Wen wu shuang quan

#430525 - 10/18/10 08:32 PM Re: TFT or Target focus Training [Re: Stormdragon]
Ames Offline

Registered: 05/29/05
Posts: 1117
I agree. I've done a lot of this kind of stuff in Systema. Frankly, I've come to see little value in it. I think it is good for a beginner, or for a child maybe. But if it is done for too long then it breeds negative returns imo. I think you hit the nail on the head with the "defined reactions"...people respond differently. And it is dealing with the varied responses/reactions to movement that is the truly difficult part of M.A. The nice thing about Systema was that they would ramp it up every now and then, and so this aspect was dealt with, maybe the TFT folks do the same?

I do like that they are at least working at chaining movement, that is a good thing.

Edited by Ames (10/18/10 08:34 PM)
"Seek not to follow in the footsteps of the men of old; seek what they sought."


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