FightingArts Estore
Pressure Points
From a medical professional, straight facts on where and how to hit that can save your life.
Stretching
Limber or not, anyone can add height and speed to their kicks with this method.
Calligraphy
For yourself or as a gift, calligraphy is special, unique and lasting.
Karate Uniforms
Look your best. Max snap. low cost & superior crafted: “Peak Performance Gold” 16 oz uniforms.

MOTOBU
Classic book translation. Hard to find. Not in stores.
Who's Online
0 registered (), 34 Guests and 3 Spiders online.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Newest Members
Bartfast, ZapEm, AndyLA, danacohenn, ksusanc
22906 Registered Users
Top Posters (30 Days)
Dobbersky 9
AndyLA 5
futsaowingchun 4
VDJ 2
FrankyFruits 2
August
Su M Tu W Th F Sa
1 2
3 4 5 6 7 8 9
10 11 12 13 14 15 16
17 18 19 20 21 22 23
24 25 26 27 28 29 30
31
New Topics
Chum Kiu 2nd section applications
by futsaowingchun
08/20/14 09:54 PM
2013 World Championship Rio: The Gallery (HD)
by ergees
08/19/14 05:22 AM
Chi Sao demonstration
by futsaowingchun
08/14/14 10:57 PM
Decent Fight channel
by FrankyFruits
08/07/14 09:19 PM
2014 European Championships Cadets Athens: Videos
by ergees
08/07/14 10:00 AM
Life goes on....
by Dobbersky
08/07/14 05:59 AM
An open letter to bunkai researchers...
by Bartfast
08/05/14 04:18 PM
Applied center line theory
by futsaowingchun
07/28/14 08:55 AM
centerline concepts
by futsaowingchun
07/14/14 10:49 PM
ITF TaeKwonDo or Shotokan Karate????
by Dobbersky
07/10/14 07:14 AM
Recent Posts
Chum Kiu 2nd section applications
by futsaowingchun
08/20/14 09:54 PM
2013 World Championship Rio: The Gallery (HD)
by ergees
08/19/14 05:22 AM
ITF TaeKwonDo or Shotokan Karate????
by VDJ
08/15/14 05:46 PM
Chi Sao demonstration
by futsaowingchun
08/14/14 10:57 PM
The Karate punch
by Dobbersky
08/12/14 05:14 AM
** Introduce Yourself! **
by Dobbersky
08/11/14 05:03 AM
Decent Fight channel
by FrankyFruits
08/07/14 09:19 PM
2014 European Championships Cadets Athens: Videos
by ergees
08/07/14 10:00 AM
Life goes on....
by Dobbersky
08/07/14 05:59 AM
A post for those who might become martial artists.
by AndyLA
08/06/14 07:25 AM
Forum Stats
22906 Members
36 Forums
35571 Topics
432473 Posts

Max Online: 424 @ 09/24/13 10:38 PM
Page 2 of 4 < 1 2 3 4 >
Topic Options
#430386 - 10/09/10 12:29 PM Re: All Martial Arts a Fraud? [Re: Shi Ronglang]
Cord Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/13/05
Posts: 11399
Loc: Cambridge UK.
With the greatest respect, any art that requires years of intensive training before you get let off the reigns to test it in a free environment is not 'martial', and when you get into decades to attain mastery, it becomes silly.

Lets wind the clock back to when martial arts were arts of war. Hundreds of thousands of young men, armed with blades and basic projectile weapons, sent out to slaughter one another in territorial dispute. These individuals were involved in brutal meetings of attrition, with literaly tens of thousands recorded as dying in a single day. The rank and file needed to be replenished to maintain numbers. It wasnt like the feudal rulers could say 'right, lets call a cease fire for 12 years till our next army is trained, and then we will settle this once and for all!!'.

The fact is that the majority of what we know as 'martial arts' are an evolution born of peace-time boredom, hypothetical 'could work's' , and a lot of inter-personal differences, inheritors of systems changing/adding things for the sake of it to 'make their mark' on the history of their art, and other factors that have squat to do with dropping a guy like a bad habit when you need to.

Also on the point of perfecting technique - if the technique is ingrained in an ideal world environment, then it will not stand up under real pressure, because all those awesome stances and perfect biomechanics will, and do, go to absolute rat-turd when you get punched in the face unless you are used to it. You have to be as conditioned to recieve violence, if you are to be able to return the favour.

Fighters fight, artists practice their art. Ideally, there will be a shade of grey where all will meet, but in reality, it just doesnt happen that much, because TMA sell confidence to the needy and insecure, and the reality of violence is a tough sell to people looking not to fight.
_________________________
Don't let the door hit ya' where the good lord split ya'
http://cord.mybrute.com

Top
#430387 - 10/09/10 01:41 PM Re: All Martial Arts a Fraud? [Re: Cord]
MattJ Offline
Free Rhinoplasty!
Prolific

Registered: 11/25/04
Posts: 15634
Loc: York PA. USA
Well said, Cord.
_________________________
"In case you ever wondered what it's like to be knocked out, it's like waking up from a nightmare only to discover it wasn't a dream." -Forrest Griffin

Top
#430388 - 10/09/10 01:57 PM Re: All Martial Arts a Fraud? [Re: Cord]
Shi Ronglang Offline
石榮狼
Member

Registered: 09/14/10
Posts: 91
Loc: Samarobriva, Gallia
Depends on how far you stretch the word "martial". I definitely agree that many traditional "martial arts" (for lack of a better word) would not be a good option for old days warfare because given the time required to master them, you're simply not getting good value for your money (that being said, when/if practiced by professionals who have nothing else to do all day but train, it takes dramatically less time than it usually does nowadays).

For this reason, I do agree that the highly refined arts that have been passed down to us are in no small part past-times developed in peace-time.

I disagree, however, when you say they were born from boredom and are made of hypothetical "could-work's". Those arts were part of a highly complex spiritual system that's difficult to get a grasp of nowadays. The harshness and excruciatingly slow rewards of the training required by many of those arts would be enough in itself to dissmiss the "boredom" hypothesis (if it was indeed more than a figure of speech from your part. I'm not sure... wink ). As for the "hypothetical" ("could-work") nature of the techniques involved, with all the respect I have for you I don't buy it. They're simply designed to fit a certain situation and will naturally appear flawed if used out of their intended context (which will easily be done by a student who hasn't been beyond the level of mere technique), I'll give you that, but that doesn't mean they are fundamentally impractical.

Let me give you an example. Over the past ten years, only once has uki-goshi ever been used to successfully end a fight in a Japanese judo championship. Does it mean uki-goshi is impractical? Nope: it means the kind of opening uki-goshi was designed for arises much less often than, say, openings that could be capitalised upon by an o-soto-gari. Yet, on that one occasion, uki-goshi was THE perfect technique for the situation at hand. Had the winner not mastered uki-goshi, maybe he would have won anyway just seconds later with an o-soto-gari; but what is sure is, the fight would have lasted at least one more move. In a true combat situation, that would be one more potentially fatal move. Sounds farfetched to spend time learning techniques that you might need once in a decade? Maybe - hence my observation above that those so-called martial arts are actually not a very good option if you're preparing for a war.
Yet, don't forget that all those techniques are merely manifestations of underlying principles. When you learn uki-goshi, you don't actually learn it so you'll know it in case the situation arises. You learn it (and practice it) in order to make its underlying principles (those of all judo) second nature to you. Theoretically speaking, a judoka who would have learnt all judo techniques BUT uki-goshi, and trained them to the point when the'yve truly become second nature, would still come up with uki-goshi when the suitable opening would arise.

Originally Posted By: Cord
[...] if the technique is ingrained in an ideal world environment, then it will not stand up under real pressure, because all those awesome stances and perfect biomechanics will, and do, go to absolute rat-turd when you get punched in the face unless you are used to it. You have to be as conditioned to recieve violence, if you are to be able to return the favour.

I'm not arguing the fact that you have to be prepared to receive violence. Some conditioning is required.
Yet technical perfection doesn't necessarily go out the window when you get punched in the face. If it does, it simply means they haven't become second nature. Running, for instance, is a highly complex process involving terrifyingly subtle physics, which we take years before mastering. Yet, I can assure you that even if I get punched hard in the face, I'm not suddenly going to forget it all and walk John Cleese-style to escape my attacker: my running skills will be as good as ever. I simply wouldn't know how to run "improperly" even if I wanted to - which certainly wouldn't be the case in such circumstances. The same applies to a true master's fighting skills.

Originally Posted By: Cord

Fighters fight, artists practice their art. Ideally, there will be a shade of grey where all will meet, but in reality, it just doesnt happen that much, because TMA sell confidence to the needy and insecure, and the reality of violence is a tough sell to people looking not to fight.

Agreed: it doesn't happen that much. But I can assure you that those who actually are in that oh-so-rare shade of grey are scary people.

And even though they may seem to be the odd ones out, I do think those scarce people represent their art better than the hordes of "needy and insecure people looking not to fight". wink
_________________________
Wen wu shuang quan

Top
#430389 - 10/09/10 02:43 PM Re: All Martial Arts a Fraud? [Re: Shi Ronglang]
Cord Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/13/05
Posts: 11399
Loc: Cambridge UK.
Originally Posted By: Shi Ronglang
Depends on how far you stretch the word "martial". I definitely agree that many traditional "martial arts" (for lack of a better word) would not be a good option for old days warfare because given the time required to master them, you're simply not getting good value for your money (that being said, when/if practiced by professionals who have nothing else to do all day but train, it takes dramatically less time than it usually does nowadays).


Human physiology hasnt changed, and the idea that at some time in the middle ages, the body thrived on training 8 hours at a time, day in, day out, is just myth. The same crippling overuse injuries, mental burnout, and loss of performance would happen then just as it does now.

Quote:
I disagree, however, when you say they were born from boredom and are made of hypothetical "could-work's". Those arts were part of a highly complex spiritual system that's difficult to get a grasp of nowadays.


Right. They were already developing to be something other than functional fighting systems, taking on the role of test of will, or of devotion to a way of life. Thats all fine, I mean, there is a yogi in India who has held his right arm extended above his head for 12 years. His hand has withered and died, and his shoulder joint has fused in that position. Amazing willpower and dedication to his spirituality. I could chuck him out of a pub in 3 seconds flat. Takes more than religious or sholastic zeal to win a fight.

Quote:
The harshness and excruciatingly slow rewards of the training required by many of those arts would be enough in itself to dissmiss the "boredom" hypothesis (if it was indeed more than a figure of speech from your part. I'm not sure... wink ).


Not really - if they had had wars in which to apply the nuts and bolts of their fight training, they would not have had time to kill turning into amateur philosphers and setters of challenges. Say what you like, but it was a slow day at the shaolin temple the day the first monk decided to try and bend a spear with his epiglotis wink

Quote:
As for the "hypothetical" ("could-work") nature of the techniques involved, with all the respect I have for you I don't buy it. They're simply designed to fit a certain situation and will naturally appear flawed if used out of their intended context (which will easily be done by a student who hasn't been beyond the level of mere technique), I'll give you that, but that doesn't mean they are fundamentally impractical.


And when is a 540 degree spin kick the 'perfect' technique? Surely anything beyond 360 is just showing off smirk

Quote:
Let me give you an example. Over the past ten years, only once has uki-goshi ever been used to successfully end a fight in a Japanese judo championship. Does it mean uki-goshi is impractical? Nope: it means the kind of opening uki-goshi was designed for arises much less often than, say, openings that could be capitalised upon by an o-soto-gari. Yet, on that one occasion, uki-goshi was THE perfect technique for the situation at hand


Do exceptions prove or disprove a rule?

Quote:
I'm not arguing the fact that you have to be prepared to receive violence. Some conditioning is required.
Yet technical perfection doesn't necessarily go out the window when you get punched in the face. If it does, it simply means they haven't become second nature. Running, for instance, is a highly complex process involving terrifyingly subtle physics, which we take years before mastering. Yet, I can assure you that even if I get punched hard in the face, I'm not suddenly going to forget it all and walk John Cleese-style to escape my attacker: my running skills will be as good as ever.
I simply wouldn't know how to run "improperly" even if I wanted to - which certainly wouldn't be the case in such circumstances.


Unless you are conditioned for the adrenal dump, and able to respond to the shock of attack, there is every chance that you will stand still like a rabbit in the headlights. Seen it scores of times.


Quote:
The same applies to a true master's fighting skills.


but I ask again, in the reality of day to day life, what use or value is a training methodology that a)requires many years to become a tool for application, and b) even then is only truly effective in the hands of 1 in every 5000 long term students who can be said to have the qualities of a 'master'?

Quote:
Originally Posted By: Cord

Fighters fight, artists practice their art. Ideally, there will be a shade of grey where all will meet, but in reality, it just doesnt happen that much, because TMA sell confidence to the needy and insecure, and the reality of violence is a tough sell to people looking not to fight.

Agreed: it doesn't happen that much. But I can assure you that those who actually are in that oh-so-rare shade of grey are scary people.


But why are they rare? If the the overriding ethos and practice of TMA's in general is to teach the skills and mechanics of dealing with violence, then there should be far more 'scary' MAists out there. The truth of it is that when Ross' study of 'Kara te' ever arose in 'Friends' it got a good laugh because we have all known someone like him, who had the belt, and the talk, but couldnt fight worth a damn, and had clearly never even come close to taking a punch.

Quote:
I do think those scarce people represent their art better than the hordes of "needy and insecure people looking not to fight". wink


They may well represent their arts better, but they are themselves not representative of their arts, as they are in the minority.

Everywhere you look, TMA classes in every church hall across the western world are advertised as the following?

Are YOU worried about rising knife crime? Would YOU know how to defend yourself and your loved one's in the event of attack? Come to Blue Dragon Karate/Kung Fu/TKD/Whatever, where under the expert tutelage of Sensei 'X' you will be given the skills, physical fitness and strength of mind to defend yourself should the unthinkable happen. DONT BE THE NEXT VICTIM IN YOUR TOWN. LEARN TO FIGHT BACK.

For goodness sake, what is 'traditional' about that? A village hall full of paranoics, abuse victims and bullied kids. They are not learning to fight, they are getting therapy in pyjamas.
Sooner or later, when an art fills its student body with people in such need, these people in time are the ones who take on the role of transmitting the art forward.

Thats why people who actually want to learn to fight because they are not afraid of fighting have moved away from TMA's and go boxing, or kickboxing, or MMA - because there is less BS and more balls.
_________________________
Don't let the door hit ya' where the good lord split ya'
http://cord.mybrute.com

Top
#430390 - 10/09/10 06:34 PM Re: All Martial Arts a Fraud? [Re: Cord]
Stormdragon Offline
Who Dares Wins
Professional Poster

Registered: 08/05/04
Posts: 3409
Loc: Salem, OR
I think these days there are a wide range of perspectives of what actual traditional training is. My idea of traditional training is seemingly very different from yours Shi. If yours incldues all that stuff I was talking about that you agreed on anyway. That said I still think free fighting with a fair amount of contact, even if it's not every workout, is necessary and not doing so for years has not been shown to create more perfect fighters.

A couple points-if you go into a fight having never done that free fighting, you will have no confidence really or a false sense of security and that can negate any physical abilities. also, good technique, when applied in that situation tends to look somewhat poor but under the constant movement of a real fight thigns start to blend together and look funny. For instance, you practice hooks with 160z glvoes and a 90 degree angle at the elbow, but when you throw on 4 oz glovs and spar those hooks tend to elongate just a little (sometimes too much) which isn't necessairly a bad thing, windmilling IS bad, but there's a big difference. Technique looks a little different in a real fight, even when it's the guys fighting are the best in the business.
_________________________
Member of DaJoGen MMA school under Dave Hagen and Team Chaos fight team under Denver Mangiyatan and Chris Toquero, ran out of Zanshin Martial Arts in Salem Oregon: http://www.zanshinarts.org/Home.aspx,

Top
#430393 - 10/10/10 07:13 AM Re: All Martial Arts a Fraud? [Re: Stormdragon]
Shi Ronglang Offline
石榮狼
Member

Registered: 09/14/10
Posts: 91
Loc: Samarobriva, Gallia
Originally Posted By: Cord
Human physiology hasnt changed, and the idea that at some time in the middle ages, the body thrived on training 8 hours at a time, day in, day out, is just myth. The same crippling overuse injuries, mental burnout, and loss of performance would happen then just as it does now.

Not arguing that. I just mean that most so called traditional MAists nowadays attend a couple of dojo classes a week; while less than a century ago, a traditional MA school was a place where you would live and train daily; the way a soldier lives with his regiment at the barracks nowadays. You'll agree that with such a dramatic alteration of the training rythm, some stretch is bound to happen in the time required to master an art.

Originally Posted By: Cord
Right. They were already developing to be something other than functional fighting systems, taking on the role of test of will, or of devotion to a way of life.

The fact that their fighting systems were part of a broader, pholosophical endeavour doesn't mean it was meant as something other than a practical skill. THIS (in the case of Japanese MA) happened many years later, with the imperial restauration. When the spiritual path these fighting techniques were a part of disappeared, all those fighting systems had to become spiritual path in themselves. That's why there was an epidemic of countless jutsu turning into as many do. The strictly martial quality of all those systems certainly suffered in the process, but that's a slightly different phenomenon.

Originally Posted By: Cord
Thats all fine, I mean, there is a yogi in India who has held his right arm extended above his head for 12 years. His hand has withered and died, and his shoulder joint has fused in that position. Amazing willpower and dedication to his spirituality. I could chuck him out of a pub in 3 seconds flat. Takes more than religious or sholastic zeal to win a fight.

Agreed. But what if instead of keeping his arm extended he had spent those twelve years (as part of his spiritual quest) doing pushups, fishing bare-handed as an accuracy drill, and kicking tree-trunks while shrieking "KILL!!!"? grin This might not be the greatest way to learn how to fight, but would-be attackers might still be in for a surprise. wink

Originally Posted By: Cord
Not really - if they had had wars in which to apply the nuts and bolts of their fight training, they would not have had time to kill turning into amateur philosphers and setters of challenges.

Setters of challenges, no. Amateur-philosophers, yes. Because in the higher warrior-classes of every traditional civilization, those two elements simply can't be separated frome each other.

Originally Posted By: Cord
Say what you like, but it was a slow day at the shaolin temple the day the first monk decided to try and bend a spear with his epiglotis wink

OK, I have to concede that one. grin

For the sake of argument though, I'm not sure that kind of showmanship skill was ever part of the true, traditional Shaolin curriculum. Seems more like a street-strongman skill to me (Chinese culture is particularly rich of such tricks. wink ).

Originally Posted By: Cord
And when is a 540 degree spin kick the 'perfect' technique? Surely anything beyond 360 is just showing off smirk

Agreed; but there again it seems more like a wu-shen (traditional actor specialised in playing hero parts, trained in "stage kungfu") skill to me. I doubt any traditional Chinese MA ever had such a technique as part of its curriculum. And even if some did, you could bet it would be meant solely as an exercise in power/balance/spin. In the form I currently work on, for instance, there is a certain move whose martial application consists in pulling the opponent's arm as part of a wrestling technique. Except, the move, as it's meant to be performed in the taolu, looks like you're fighting Dhalsim: no human arm could possibly be pulled that far, given the virtual position of the guy. Training the move in this purposefully exagerated way is just meant to give you a habit of systematically using more power than actually required. Better to overdo it than underdo it. wink

Originally Posted By: Cord
Do exceptions prove or disprove a rule?

They disprove it in my book. I therefore infer from that one instance of uki-goshi as a fight-ender that this technique, seldom-usable as it seems to be, DOES have some use.

Originally Posted By: Cord

Unless you are conditioned for the adrenal dump, and able to respond to the shock of attack, there is every chance that you will stand still like a rabbit in the headlights. Seen it scores of times.

Very possibly indeed, but that's a distinct phenomenon and beyond the point. If I DO run, I'm not going to forget the fine motor skills I learnt in the course of my first four years of existence and escape, say, the way I used to walk when I was 16 months old. Those skills are simply too deeply ingrained in me now.

Consider the following situation.
I'm in China, chatting in Chinese with a few friends. We're talking about a subject I know well, I feel no pressure and speak with perfect grammar and impeccable Beijing accent. Suddenly, some unknown angry dude pops up and shouts at me things I don't understand. Maybe the shock will get me tongue-tied (the "rabbit in the headlights" phenomenon you mentionned), or maybe I will answer in a pitiful, broken Chinese, the beautiful grammar I was so proud of dissolving in the gutter ("all those awesome stances and perfect biomechanics will, and do, go to absolute rat-turd when you get punched in the face"). That's because Chinese is a language I simply don't master well enough. I might falsely sound like I do, but this actually requires a conscious effort on my part, which simply can't be maintained under pressure.

Now let's say the same thing happens in France. Just like in China, maybe the cat will get my tongue as soon as the rude intruder pops up and starts shouting at me. But if I DO respond, I assure you I'm not going to put my relative dependant clauses before my nouns just because I'm out of my comfort zone. There's simply NOTHING (appart from severe brain damage) that'll ever make me make grammatical mistakes in my native tongue.

Mastering a martial technique until you simply can't do it improperly is what I mean when I use the verb "master". There are loads of very complex skills that we master (speech and walk are maybe the most obvious examples but there are many others). The aim of traditional martial arts is to achieve this very same phenomenon with martial techniques.

Originally Posted By: Cord
but I ask again, in the reality of day to day life, what use or value is a training methodology that a)requires many years to become a tool for application, and b) even then is only truly effective in the hands of 1 in every 5000 long term students who can be said to have the qualities of a 'master'?

There again, walking requires several years to "become a tool for application". Crawling will get you there a lot earlier, involves much simpler physics and requires much less skill. Would you dismiss walking as being without use or value?

As for the "1 in every 5000 long term students" problem, it wasn't always the case. It is now, because the statistics are ruined by
a) the exponentially increasing number of people who train half-assedly, and
b) the exponentially decreasing ammount of people who train efficiently.
This is to be expected in a world where "true", parctical fighting has become dominated by firearms. The vast majority of people who attend a dojo nowadays are not fighters. And the vast majority of fighters nowadays don't rely on a dojo for that (guns DO work better).
MA are nothing more than a leisurely practice to most of their practitioners now. Some still take that leisure seriously, but most don't.
Another reason that partially accounts for the dramatically low number of efficiently trained traditional MAists, which I could have listed as c), is the presence of innumerable poor teachers (or downright frauds).

Originally Posted By: Cord

But why are they rare? If the the overriding ethos and practice of TMA's in general is to teach the skills and mechanics of dealing with violence, then there should be far more 'scary' MAists out there.

They are comparatively rare, but they aren't necessarily unicorns either (OK, I'll admit in the Occident they tend to be grin ). See above for the reasons - the main one being that most practitioners simply don't give TMA the ammount of work and dedication they require to reap their practical benefits. But people who do still exist. In China, I once met a fellow-countryman... He was a sanda champion in France, had won a few tournaments at regional level and has come to Beijing to train "at the source". He told me what a shock it had been to him to find that over there, he was consistently beaten even by goddamn wushu practitioners (wushu as in modern wushu, the flashy, silly-looking type)! There simply is nothing common between what they call training over there and what so-called MAists do over here.

Originally Posted By: Cord
The truth of it is that when Ross' study of 'Kara te' ever arose in 'Friends' it got a good laugh because we have all known someone like him, who had the belt, and the talk, but couldnt fight worth a damn, and had clearly never even come close to taking a punch.

Agreed. There's a huge difference, though, between the way I would imagine Ross to train and the way people train in China (I assume the same applies to Japan, Philippines, etc.). 99% western practitioners are the Ross-type.

Originally Posted By: Cord
They may well represent their arts better, but they are themselves not representative of their arts, as they are in the minority.

A mere matter of semantics; on which I nonetheless beg to disagree. The English language has become so universal that the majority of its speakers are now non-natives who consistently butcher it. Would you say that this majority of poor English speakers are representative of the English language? Would you say that butchered-English is the true form of that tongue? Many of your fellow-Cambridgians would shiver at the thought. grin

Originally Posted By: Cord
Everywhere you look, TMA classes in every church hall across the western world are advertised as the following?

Are YOU worried about rising knife crime? [...] DONT BE THE NEXT VICTIM IN YOUR TOWN. LEARN TO FIGHT BACK.

For goodness sake, what is 'traditional' about that?

Nothing. We're in perfect agreement on that. wink

Originally Posted By: Cord
A village hall full of paranoics, abuse victims and bullied kids. They are not learning to fight, they are getting therapy in pyjamas.

Agreed again.

Originally Posted By: Cord
Sooner or later, when an art fills its student body with people in such need, these people in time are the ones who take on the role of transmitting the art forward.

Yes. It's just an inflated, grossly amplified case of yellow belt going "let me teach you that trick I learnt at the dojo yesterday". Most westerners consider their black belt a license to call themselves a master and teach (which shouldn't be the case even IF the said black belt was deserved, which, more often than not, isn't the case). In Japan, no one would even consider learning a MA from anything lower than a 4th dan. But there again, the regrettable profusion of incompetent teachers doesn't mean that those who ARE truly proficient with the art can't keep it alive.

Originally Posted By: Cord
Thats why people who actually want to learn to fight because they are not afraid of fighting have moved away from TMA's and go boxing, or kickboxing, or MMA - because there is less BS and more balls.

Absolutely. Because they involve sparring from day one, fraud is simply made impossible in those disciplines. In TMA's, you won't distinguish a true, effective traditional fighter from a charlatan (whether he's actually conscious of being one or not) so easily.
Until relatively recently, teachers (in some countries at least) made their reputation through challenges. This insured their would-be students that the master could actually fight. If such a tradition was put to the test in Europe or America, i bet quite a shiteload of dreams would get broken in the process. grin

Originally Posted By: Stormdragon
My idea of traditional training is seemingly very different from yours Shi.

So is that of most Westerners (which is understandable given the offer in our parts), hence the huge misconceptions that have basically become the martial norm over here.

Originally Posted By: Stormdragon
If yours incldues all that stuff I was talking about that you agreed on anyway.

It does. Or maybe should I say: "it's meant to". whistle

Originally Posted By: Stormdragon
That said I still think free fighting with a fair amount of contact, even if it's not every workout, is necessary [...]

At some point, yes, it becomes necessary. The difference is, in TMA you only get to do free dialogue once you're perfectly fluent in the language, while in boxing-like arts free dialogue is used as a training tool to learn the language.

Originally Posted By: Stormdragon
[...] and not doing so for years has not been shown to create more perfect fighters.
Yet, that is the doctrine behind its (temporary) strict avoidance in TMAs. And believe it or not, that traditional method did (and still does, if extremely scarcely now) produce amazing fighters. For instance there is currently a yi-quan / Chen-shi taiji-quan master in China, strictly traditionally trained, who has fought against many challengers and is still undefeated (not sure if he still fights though) and whose personal record is a victory by K.O. in four seconds. It doesn't necessarily mean he could take on Anderson Silva, but I think it does show that the traditional method has some merits. wink

I'm not saying the traditional way is superior, it's just... different. As they say, to each their own. I'm personally the "pathologic perfectionist who basically never gets anything done because of his perfectionism" type, so TMAs suit me perfectly. grin
_________________________
Wen wu shuang quan

Top
#430398 - 10/10/10 11:05 AM Re: All Martial Arts a Fraud? [Re: Shi Ronglang]
Cord Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/13/05
Posts: 11399
Loc: Cambridge UK.
Quote:
In TMA's, you won't distinguish a true, effective traditional fighter from a charlatan (whether he's actually conscious of being one or not) so easily.


Because of the nature of the training embraced by the majority of TMA systems/schools/organisations, they themselves dont know if they are frauds or not.

When it boils down to it, you really dont need more than the ability to control distance, good timing, power in both fists and the familiarity and ability to give and take a bit of punishment and not get flustered by it. Thats it.

If you want to take a route that may get you there in 25 years because you like the scenery and the journey is as important as the destination, then I am not going to criticise, just dont expect my company on the way wink
_________________________
Don't let the door hit ya' where the good lord split ya'
http://cord.mybrute.com

Top
#430408 - 10/10/10 05:11 PM Re: All Martial Arts a Fraud? [Re: Cord]
Shi Ronglang Offline
石榮狼
Member

Registered: 09/14/10
Posts: 91
Loc: Samarobriva, Gallia
Originally Posted By: Cord
Quote:
In TMA's, you won't distinguish a true, effective traditional fighter from a charlatan (whether he's actually conscious of being one or not) so easily.


Because of the nature of the training embraced by the majority of TMA systems/schools/organisations, they themselves dont know if they are frauds or not.

Exactly. That's why I tend to favour instructors with at least a little bit of actual combat experience, to make sure they have some sense of what a brawl looks/feels like. So far, all my teachers had extensive experience in that regard (except - for obvious reasons - my iaido teacher).

Originally Posted By: Cord
When it boils down to it, you really dont need more than the ability to control distance, good timing, power in both fists and the familiarity and ability to give and take a bit of punishment and not get flustered by it. Thats it.

These are the fundamental skills of combat, the starter-kit, if you will. They are certainly a must have, and they're sufficient in themselves, but it doesn't mean you can't improve your fighting abilities by adding a couple of extra skills to the mix. Like, say, an exceptional sense of balance, for instance, or an extra-sensitive ability to assess and redirect incoming force, etc. That's what TMA's are here for.

Originally Posted By: Cord
If you want to take a route that may get you there in 25 years because you like the scenery and the journey is as important as the destination, then I am not going to criticise [...]

I certainly hope it'll take me a little less than that to "get there"! The great part about TMA's is, even once I'm there (as in "once I can reasonably consider myself a competent fighter"), there will still be lots of room for improvement and fine-tuning. While if I was a boxer, at my current age, my career would start declining already (the counterpart being, of course, that I would have "been there" for half a decade already). I'm not sure the journey is as important as the destination to TMAists. I would just say that they're headed toward a slightly different destination. As for the "scenery" and Asian folklore that goes with it, it's a bit like the icing on the cake: some people will think it adds a pleasant (if useless) colour to the whole thing, others won't stand its pungent aroma and will just leave it on the side of their plate, and scores of kids will lick it avidly while hardly touching the cake itself (deeming it too dry). wink

Originally Posted By: Cord
[...] just dont expect my company on the way wink

I had kind of gathered I couldn't count on you as a travel companion on that road grin , but it's fine really. I'm no big proselyte. I can't (and don't) expect every traveller to hop onto the same train as mine, a fortiori since I've accepted to take a desperately slow steam-powered one just because they promised me I'd get a free key-chain and a T-shirt when I reach destination. grin
Fortunately, while following our distinct paths hundreds of doctrinal (as well as physical) kilometers away from each other, we still have FA.com to communicate and have a nice exchange of views now and then. wink
_________________________
Wen wu shuang quan

Top
#430411 - 10/11/10 11:07 AM Re: All Martial Arts a Fraud? [Re: Shi Ronglang]
Jokatech Offline
Newbie

Registered: 10/09/07
Posts: 18
I must just input this. With all that's been said. A fighter should be prepared to recieve danger and damage but not aiming to. A single blow can be fatal. TMA's by MAJORITY tend to be drowned in alot of katas and extraneous techniques. However, there are very effective techiques to be found in some of the advanced styles such as Wing Tsun and JKD. Although, I have just joined an MMA camp, as we train, I see situations where it can really benefit you to know the intricacies of locks and holds from WT even off of the ground. Like Bruce Lee said, "Take what is useful. Discard what is useless." That principle makes ultimate sense to me. There are holes in all styles, even MMA styles such as boxing, MT, and BJJ. I don't take my wariness of TMA too far to the point where I shun techniques that can add to my self defense.

With that said, while watching a MA class (karate) the other day, I do find it laughable how much they cream over forms. The instructor tends to sound like a choreographer telling the students to make sure the techniques looks pretty. That infuriates and disgusts me. But you don't find that behavior in a Wing Tsun class. However, that style too has holes. It's not about styles, it's about all of the phases of combat. The goal is to cover effective techniques for all fight situations. That's my goal and I don't crop my vision when it comes to what I add to this goal.
_________________________
I never believed in the classical retreat, like the fake never knew technique.

Top
#430412 - 10/11/10 11:12 AM Re: All Martial Arts a Fraud? [Re: Cord]
jonwade Offline
Member

Registered: 09/21/06
Posts: 34
Loc: Essex, UK
Originally Posted By: Cord
Hundreds of thousands of young men, armed with blades and basic projectile weapons, sent out to slaughter one another in territorial dispute. These individuals were involved in brutal meetings of attrition, with literaly tens of thousands recorded as dying in a single day. The rank and file needed to be replenished to maintain numbers.


You could also argue that the rank and file were never trained properly as they were the cannon fodder of their day. So they would only learn the basic techniques (block, thrust) and the generals at the back would stay protected to then teach the next lot.

To say martial arts are fraudulent misses the point. People that do them want to dedicate their lives to learning all there is. Many styles do go very deep. That is not to say that you cannot fight without learning it all though. Some instructors make it clear that no matter how much you learn, you will probably resort to a few simple techniques in fighting.

But this is part of what learning martial arts is about. Not how to do a particular fancy move - but when to do the most simple ones.

Top
Page 2 of 4 < 1 2 3 4 >






Action Ads
1.5 Million Plus Page Views
Monthly
Only $89
Details

Ryukyu Art
Artifacts from the Ryukyu Kingdom missing since WWII. Visit www.ShisaLion.Org to view pictures

Best Stun Guns
Self Defense Products-stun guns, pepper spray, tasers and more

Surveillance 4U
Complete surveillance systems for covert operations or secure installation security

Asylum Images
Book presents photo tour of the Trans-Allegany Lunatic Asylum. A must if you're going to take a ghost tour!

 



Unbreakable Unbrella

krav maga