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#430369 - 10/08/10 09:50 AM All Martial Arts a Fraud?
Jokatech Offline
Newbie

Registered: 10/09/07
Posts: 18
Hello. I've been in a heated debate with a fool who claims to have studied BJJ, Wrestling, Boxing, MT etc. He is pro MMA as I am though he so insane I don't even think he know that. Anyway, he is ripping all Martial Arts- not some. I really don't get his deal. What do you think? Here is a sample of his tyraid-

"No, I'm saying because they dont fight, and they dont train realistically for fights, their MA are useless and have no real value in a combat situation.

Jok

This is the last I'm gonna say because you clearly dont know half as much as you think you do, and I seriously question whether you've actually every wrestled or Boxed or done half the things you've said you did. If you did I'm realy realy sure that you wouldnt be spewing such rediculous crap.

You are aware that in UFC (before it became a sport with rules) that the only things that were illegal were eyegouging and fishhooking.... you are aware of that right? Now go look up what fish hooking is because you probably dont know. Everything else was allowed.... guess what..... all these uber deadly kung fu and Karate guys that came got owned easily and their groin strikes, throat strikes/pressure points strikes amounted to nothing more then a pile of [censored]. Royce Gracie made them look stupid. Tell me... why didnt any of these very capable practicioners of these's uber deadly arts not use any of these techniques? Did they feel sorry for Royce while he was pounding their face into a bloody pulp or breaking their arm? That has to be the reason. Or maybe its because the crap is so inefficient that it doesn't have much of a chance of working on a regular person much less a trained fighter.

See there is a difference between you and I. You think because you've trained abunch of different TMA's means you a MMAist.... well I dont see it that way and not many MMA fighter do either. There are a few exceptions like Lyoto Machida but not many..... when we say Mixed Martial Arts it is almost certainly reffering to Kickboxing, Sambo, Muay Thai, Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu, Judo, Boxing and wrestling... and in some cases Kyokushin Karate and its offshoots (mad respect for that style.... they train like Kickboxers.... thats why its the only karate style that is really worth a damn). Not many people who train in the sport or live and breath the sport think of Kung Fu or Goju Ryu whatever when they think Of MMA. The core arts that most people train are BJJ, Muay Thai and wrestling. Just because you train abunch of differnt TMA's does not mean your a Mixed Martial Artist in the sense that people who compete in MMA think of it. Totally different.

And you thing with history is retarded once again. History is something that is very easily defined, especially on this subject. Jujutsu in Japan is very very well documented. It is an undistutable fact that hand to hand combat in Japan did not become well researched and (flourish) If you will until the time of peace when there were no more wars to be fought. There is a reason for that........IT MAKES ABSOLUTELY NO FREAKING SENSE WHATSOEVER TO SPEND A HUGE AMOUNT OF TIME LEARNING TO FIGHT BARE HANDED WHEN THE ENEMY IS HEAVILY ARMORED AND HAS WEAPONS COMING OUT OF HIS ASS...... I WOULD LIKE YOU TO GET THAT POINT....HELL THE SWORD WAS A SECONDARY WEAPON ON THE BATTLFIED IN PRETTY MUCH EVERY CIVILIZATION.... HOW MUCH FURTHER DOWN THE LIST OF PRIORITIES DO YOU THINK HAND TO HAND FIGHTING WOULD BE? WHEN THE ENEMY HAS SPEARS, BOWS AND ARROWS, CANNONS, GUNS, ARMOUR, PIKES, BATTLE AXES.... AGAIN i SAY WHY WOULD YOU SPEND ALOT OF TIME LEARNING TO FIGHT WITH YOUR HANDS.

The monks in Chin were taught different forms of excercise which developed into the what we know today. It has nothing to do with the battlefield. Practicing MA amongst monks or whoever has NOTHING to do with the battlefield. These ats have no place on the battlefield. Its the same deal we have going today. How much time is spent on hand to hand combat in the Amry today? not much.... how much time is spent on weapon training and drilling????? A whole [censored] bunch......... it was no different back then. Taking abunch of peasants and giving then 7 foot long spears and training them to tactically stick other large groups of people is very effective and worth alot more on the battlefield.

Thats reality. Again, this is my last post. I've been training in Ma's for awhile and I've been a few fights (outside the ring) to know that the realities of combat go way beyond the useless crap thats taught in most TMA styles with Kata and no contact fighting and pressure points. Its crap, pure and simple and I just tell it like it is.

I will encourage you to post this crap on Sherdog or Bullshido.com and prepared to get laughed off the internet. Infact on Sherdog they have many famous Pro fighters who post there. Tell them exactly your views on what works and what doesnt and whether its a good idea or not for them to mess with a 60 year old asian dude who spent his entire life in a horse stance and ooks like he has a chopstick up his ass.... a guy who's spent his life practicing prearanged dancing that supposebly mimic a praying mantis killing a bug.... I'm sure they will agree with you. They dont want no part of that. "


Edited by Jokatech (10/08/10 09:52 AM)
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I never believed in the classical retreat, like the fake never knew technique.

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#430370 - 10/08/10 10:37 AM Re: All Martial Arts a Fraud? [Re: Jokatech]
Shi Ronglang Offline
石榮狼
Member

Registered: 09/14/10
Posts: 91
Loc: Samarobriva, Gallia
Well, sorry for being blunt but that person is an idiot.

Dismissing every single traditional martial method as impractical and useless is just plain stupid, period.

I could introduce him to a coupla' 100% traditional masters who would definitely change his mind.
Like for instance a certain Chinese-Vietnamese dude (wing-chun / hung-gar / taiji-quan practitionner) who fought as a commando on the Vietnamese side during the Chinese-Vietnamese war, and who happens to be my current instructor... The last guy who tried to snatch his cell-phone will never speak again. Might have something to do with that kick he caught in the throat...
_________________________
Wen wu shuang quan

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#430372 - 10/08/10 05:34 PM Re: All Martial Arts a Fraud? [Re: Shi Ronglang]
Cord Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/13/05
Posts: 11399
Loc: Cambridge UK.
Its obviously a divisive argument, but, in a sense, I can see where its coming from, but the issue is not with any art, but rather with how arts are trained.

If part of an art is compliant partner drills, kata, and non combative transmition of technique, then that is a means to an end, that end being the ability to take technique and principles from this theoretical vacuum and put them into application.
If this kind of training is not complimented by resistant, unpredictable testing of these techniques in application, then it does not teach you how to deal with the reality of overpowering another human being physicaly, and all that that entails.
Knowing a wrist lock, and applying it to someone willing to recieve the technique to aid you in your understanding of said technique, is nowhere near the same as eating 2 headbutts and a facefull of spit as you hang on to a guy's arm and try and crank it behind his back to stop him hitting his girlfriend again.
Whilst anything other than the reality of that moment will be a simulation, if the simulated experience comes nowhere close in any way, then you really dont stand a chance.
_________________________
Don't let the door hit ya' where the good lord split ya'
http://cord.mybrute.com

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#430373 - 10/08/10 06:18 PM Re: All Martial Arts a Fraud? [Re: Cord]
Stormdragon Offline
Who Dares Wins
Professional Poster

Registered: 08/05/04
Posts: 3409
Loc: Salem, OR
What Cord said. I've known TMA practitioners who would look for fights in real life for the sake of pressure testing their skills (not a good idea but that's besides the point). Those guys could fight just fine. It had nothing to do with the techniques it had to do with the simple fact that they used their arts against guys fighting back. Some kind of live training or application is crucial though.
_________________________
Member of DaJoGen MMA school under Dave Hagen and Team Chaos fight team under Denver Mangiyatan and Chris Toquero, ran out of Zanshin Martial Arts in Salem Oregon: http://www.zanshinarts.org/Home.aspx,

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#430375 - 10/08/10 07:09 PM Re: All Martial Arts a Fraud? [Re: Stormdragon]
Shi Ronglang Offline
石榮狼
Member

Registered: 09/14/10
Posts: 91
Loc: Samarobriva, Gallia
Amen to that.

In my humble opinion: the earlier this happens in your martial progression, the quicker you'll be able to actually defend yourself.
The later it happens, the longer you'll spend effectively "dancing" without any true ability to put what you learn into practice BUT the more perfect your technique will be when you actually get there.

It's a question of what you're after, really. If all you want is the ability to overpower most would-be attackers, boxing classes will probably get you there in a few months of time. That same ammount of time spent in a traditional dojo won't even make you a better fighter (it will only give you more stuff to attempt and fail at while you get your butt kicked), but you'll definitely end up being a more scary fighter in the long run. I've seen what decades of daily traditional training does to a guy, and that's quite something. Decades of daily boxing/UFC-style MMA will just make you a human wreck (if after having made you a formidable fighter for a few years).

Not meaning to bash boxing and similar arts, by the way. They're just a different thing, and very good at what they do.

One last thing: I realise my previous post might sound off as condoning what happened... I'm not sure I do. The would-be thief certainly asked for it, but still my instructor got fined for using excessive force - and probably rightly so, especially given the fact that what he did was perfectly controlled and intended.
_________________________
Wen wu shuang quan

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#430378 - 10/08/10 11:47 PM Re: All Martial Arts a Fraud? [Re: Shi Ronglang]
Stormdragon Offline
Who Dares Wins
Professional Poster

Registered: 08/05/04
Posts: 3409
Loc: Salem, OR
I have to disagree about mma or other combat sports making you less proficient in your technique than traditional training. That's only true if you spar balls to the wall every workout which won't happen in a good school. I find that at least as much attention is spent on the nuances of technique in my mma school. I was actually very suprised at that, having come from a background in TMA. That said, most TMA's (Kajukenbo or Kenpo for instance) won't make nearly as good a fighter in the short run but cover a wider range of skills right from the beginning which is a plus.
_________________________
Member of DaJoGen MMA school under Dave Hagen and Team Chaos fight team under Denver Mangiyatan and Chris Toquero, ran out of Zanshin Martial Arts in Salem Oregon: http://www.zanshinarts.org/Home.aspx,

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#430381 - 10/09/10 03:43 AM Re: All Martial Arts a Fraud? [Re: Stormdragon]
Cord Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/13/05
Posts: 11399
Loc: Cambridge UK.
I too disagree about the distinction between longevity between MMA and TMA.

MMA is simply a selection of TMA techniques that have been tried and tested under pressure of fully resisting oponents, and taught in synergy to give an artist options in all ranges of combat. Its that simple.

Quite often you will hear the rationale that very experienced TMAists over decades of training, first learn everything in their system, then spend their training distilling that system into the purity of what works for them. It is almost a deconstruction where they come to the emlightenment of the power of the truth in the 'basics'.

All MMA does is streamline that process by cutting away the flab and teaching people to rely on solid basics from day one, and teaching them to function when under genuine pressure of a real oponent.

If anything, its closer to the roots of TMA than the hundreds of layers of codified complications that came about in the centuries of peace-time tinkering with the arts.
_________________________
Don't let the door hit ya' where the good lord split ya'
http://cord.mybrute.com

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#430383 - 10/09/10 04:57 AM Re: All Martial Arts a Fraud? [Re: Cord]
Shi Ronglang Offline
石榮狼
Member

Registered: 09/14/10
Posts: 91
Loc: Samarobriva, Gallia
Originally Posted By: Cord
MMA is simply a selection of TMA techniques that have been tried and tested under pressure of fully resisting oponents, and taught in synergy to give an artist options in all ranges of combat. Its that simple.

Agreed.

Originally Posted By: Cord
Quite often you will hear the rationale that very experienced TMAists over decades of training, first learn everything in their system, then spend their training distilling that system into the purity of what works for them. It is almost a deconstruction where they come to the emlightenment of the power of the truth in the 'basics'.

That's not the way I see it. The rationale behind my view is quite different and would still be the same with an art relying on, say, a single punching technique.

Let me put it that way... There was a tennis champion (can't recall her name, it was back in the 50's I think) whose strength lay in her spectacular ability to shoot the ball with pinpoint accuracy. She had developped that skill by first treating tennis like a shooting sport, basically: her trainer would randomly throw a small handkerchief somewhere on the court, then throw her ball after ball until she hit those few square-inches of cloth.
That's simply not the kind of skill you can develop "under pressure of a fully resisting opponent". Of course such training is crucial too, but I'm convinced she would never have got that kind of accuracy had she trained this way from day one.

TMA's doctrine is the same. Once you're not only able to punch/kick/throw with perfect technique but the said perfect technique truly becomes your natural, normal way to punch/kick/throw (basically, when you're unable to do it any other way even if you wanted to), only then do you start training against a fully resisting opponent. In the old days that meant a few years of training before sparring for the first time. With today's training rythms, that would be more like decades (during which you're essentially still a poor fighter). Clearly not very appealing, especially if you study martial arts mainly for practical purposes. Yet I'm still a firm believer in the fact that it can make you a more "perfect" fighter in the (admittedly very) long run.

Not saying people who start sparring from the very beginning of their training are necessarily poor technicians. Actually I often see them having much better technique than many TMAists. wink It's just that I can't see them attaining the kind of effortless technical perfection I've witnessed in highly advanced traditional practitionners.
_________________________
Wen wu shuang quan

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#430384 - 10/09/10 05:26 AM Re: All Martial Arts a Fraud? [Re: Shi Ronglang]
Stormdragon Offline
Who Dares Wins
Professional Poster

Registered: 08/05/04
Posts: 3409
Loc: Salem, OR
I actually think that kind of pinpoint accuracy or technical skill IS able to be developed under pressure, but not with a FULLY resisting opponent. Really, techniques should be drilled with maybe 20% resistance or so after doing it a few times with a fully compliant partner. When going live or sparring/rolling under certain scenarios (say being limited to certain techniques) but using minimal resistance or one person just defending and the other just attacking, your skill or technique will become phenomenal and more importantly, it will be applicable. I don't see good training as beating the holy hell out of each other every workout, that's good for some things but shouldn't be done as much as training with just a fair amount of resistance.

The fact is, if you spend all your time for years training with no resistance at all, you could develope bad habits and you wouldn't know it because even bad technique works against someone who doesn't fight back. If I do, say, an armbar from the guard and I'm getting no resistance, I can let my knees stay loose or cross my ankles and it may still work and people may never notice or see an issue with it (I've even seen it taught that way) but if someone makes at least a small attempt to prevent me from completeing the technique and I do that stuff it's probably not going to work, and if I'm then straining to get it or not getting it, I'll know my technique is off, correct and then my technique is much better. Now if every time I try it, I'm getting 100% resistance I'll never know how it feels to actually get it and thus never learn it fully.

However, for striking anyway, things like mitt or pad work can be better for building some techniques which is why we do that extensivly. That said, you can throw punches at air all day, and you may be making small mistakes like having your elbows out just a little too far, or your chin slightly high, and iinstructors may not notice till they see you getting clocked repeatedly then say "wait a sec, you're leaving yourself open" or at least you'll know something isn't right. And in the modern day model of a business with tons of students, your instructor won't catch everything, sometimes you need a partner who can show you what's wrong simply by not just GIVING you everything.

I did years of one step sparring and compliant self defense training and always wondered why those moves never worked. They key is in adjusting the resistance and not simply going "all out" all the timne.

Not saying that nobody can make the traditional approach to training work (and the emphasis on numerous repitions of just the basics is a very good thing that is lacking in many modern MA schools), it can with some people, but, I mean, how many people do you know who have used that approach only for even as much as 20 years and would have the slightest chance against say GSP or Anderson Silva?


Edited by Stormdragon (10/09/10 05:29 AM)
_________________________
Member of DaJoGen MMA school under Dave Hagen and Team Chaos fight team under Denver Mangiyatan and Chris Toquero, ran out of Zanshin Martial Arts in Salem Oregon: http://www.zanshinarts.org/Home.aspx,

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#430385 - 10/09/10 07:38 AM Re: All Martial Arts a Fraud? [Re: Stormdragon]
Shi Ronglang Offline
石榮狼
Member

Registered: 09/14/10
Posts: 91
Loc: Samarobriva, Gallia
Originally Posted By: Stormdragon
I actually think that kind of pinpoint accuracy or technical skill IS able to be developed under pressure, but not with a FULLY resisting opponent. Really, techniques should be drilled with maybe 20% resistance or so after doing it a few times with a fully compliant partner. When going live or sparring/rolling under certain scenarios (say being limited to certain techniques) but using minimal resistance or one person just defending and the other just attacking, your skill or technique will become phenomenal and more importantly, it will be applicable.

Agreed. And traditional training IS meant to have that too (not all schools do, though).

Originally Posted By: Stormdragon
The fact is, if you spend all your time for years training with no resistance at all, you could develope bad habits and you wouldn't know it because even bad technique works against someone who doesn't fight back.

There again we agree. Traditional training is not meant to be with zero resistance either. It just involves a controlled kind of resistance that will put the technical perfection of your technique to the test WITHOUT being a distraction from your perfecting the said technique (unlike, say, free sparring).


Originally Posted By: Stormdragon
If I do, say, an armbar from the guard and I'm getting no resistance, I can let my knees stay loose or cross my ankles and it may still work and people may never notice or see an issue with it (I've even seen it taught that way) but if someone makes at least a small attempt to prevent me from completeing the technique and I do that stuff it's probably not going to work, and if I'm then straining to get it or not getting it, I'll know my technique is off, correct and then my technique is much better. Now if every time I try it, I'm getting 100% resistance I'll never know how it feels to actually get it and thus never learn it fully.

I fully agree once more. And there again, this IS something that's present in traditional training. Only, traditional MA's train techniques either one at a time or in codified sequences, as opposed to free sparring. Free sparring develops great tactical skills, but it keeps your mind too busy with having to deal with immediate concerns for you to retain the technical perfection of your technique UNLESS you've already made the said technical perfection "second nature".



Originally Posted By: Stormdragon
However, for striking anyway, things like mitt or pad work can be better for building some techniques which is why we do that extensivly. That said, you can throw punches at air all day, and you may be making small mistakes like having your elbows out just a little too far, or your chin slightly high, and instructors may not notice till they see you getting clocked repeatedly then say "wait a sec, you're leaving yourself open" or at least you'll know something isn't right. And in the modern day model of a business with tons of students, your instructor won't catch everything, sometimes you need a partner who can show you what's wrong simply by not just GIVING you everything.

Absolutely.

That being said, a true, competent traditional master has an amazing eye for technical flaws in your form, even when performed in kata/taolu/poomsae. wink

Originally Posted By: Stormdragon
I did years of one step sparring and compliant self defense training and always wondered why those moves never worked. They key is in adjusting the resistance and not simply going "all out" all the time.

Yes. And still it should be noted that "all out" (force-wise) resistance DOES have a place in traditional training too.
When I pointed at the problems of training with a "fully resisting opponent", I meant "fully" as in "with a full arsenal of techniques" not as in "with full force". Sooner or later, whether in a traditional or in a modern way, you have to train your technique against full resistance, or even "more-than-full" resistance (by this I mean using devices that will simulate a resistance beyond any human capability - traditional training is full of such examples). But this kind of resistance only addresses the technique at hand; it doesn't "parasite" it.
In other words: "full force resistance", yes; "full range resistance", no. Not yet. For that, let's wait until we've mastered (with full strength resistance) the techniques we've been taught.

Do I make sense? blush

Originally Posted By: Stormdragon
Not saying that nobody can make the traditional approach to training work (and the emphasis on numerous repitions of just the basics is a very good thing that is lacking in many modern MA schools), it can with some people, but, I mean, how many people do you know who have used that approach only for even as much as 20 years and would have the slightest chance against say GSP or Anderson Silva?

Very few, I have to admit. But I must point out a number of elements:
-The number of persons still using proper traditional approach nowadays (let alone for 20 years) IS pretty low in the first place. grin
-UFC stars' fighting efficiency lies not only in their technique but also in their exceptional raw physical strength and their combat experience, something lacking in many modern traditional MAists (those who AREN'T lacking in those fields can be pretty terrifying human beings, though. Imagine an Anderson Silva with the perfect technical smoothness of a decades-trained traditional master? sick )
-The admittedly very effective way those gentlemen hone their martial abilities has its drawbacks. My current instructor is over fifty, and he's a better fighter now than he was twenty years ago. I don't see any cage-fighter's ability improving after their prime years. Call me naive, but I would confidently pit my instructor against pretty much any fifty-something ex UFC star.
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