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#429642 - 09/04/10 01:56 AM Low kick pivot
Stormdragon Offline
Who Dares Wins
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Registered: 08/05/04
Posts: 3409
Loc: Salem, OR
Do you guys pivot on the heel or toe?
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#429648 - 09/04/10 10:44 AM Re: Low kick pivot [Re: Stormdragon]
MattJ Offline
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Registered: 11/25/04
Posts: 15634
Loc: York PA. USA
Ball of the foot for me.
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#429651 - 09/04/10 12:08 PM Re: Low kick pivot [Re: MattJ]
Kimo2007 Offline
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Registered: 03/31/07
Posts: 1057
Ditto
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#429662 - 09/04/10 10:17 PM Re: Low kick pivot [Re: Kimo2007]
Stormdragon Offline
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Registered: 08/05/04
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Loc: Salem, OR
Seems liek that's the msot common. That's what my mma instructor prefers but I use the heel. More stab;e and powerful I think. You just telegraph a bit, so I spend a lot of time working set ups. I always at least shoot a cross and follow with the kick so they aren't watching me as I pivot. Bad Rutten makes it work so I figure if it's godo enough for him it's good enough form me. lol
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#429714 - 09/06/10 06:44 AM Re: Low kick pivot [Re: Stormdragon]
matt_mcg Offline
Member

Registered: 03/08/06
Posts: 113
Pivoting on the heel doesn't make sense to me, I'm afraid.

Assuming you are moving on the balls of your feet 'boxing' style [which most people do, for mobility, speed, etc] then pivoting on the heel is a much slower and, as you say, telegraphed movement than rotating on the ball of the foot. It also seems like you'd be less rather than more stable if you've lifted the toes and ball of the feet off of the ground since that's normally how we maintain balance [flexing the forefoot, etc]. The heel, in contrast to the forefoot/ball-of-the-foot has no spring, no shock-absorption, no ability to control movement and change direction.

I'm not doubting that you can make it work for you, but it does seem [to me at least] counter-intuitive. It doesn't seem to offer any advantage at all over kicking via a pivot on the ball of the foot, and lots of disadvantages.

Try it, as an experiment, raise your toes off of the ground as if pivoting on the heel and ask someone to push you, and then try the same while on the balls of your feet. Which one lets you recover balance more effectively? And control the movement of the push?

Matt

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#429724 - 09/06/10 09:08 AM Re: Low kick pivot [Re: matt_mcg]
Stormdragon Offline
Who Dares Wins
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Registered: 08/05/04
Posts: 3409
Loc: Salem, OR
I've tried kicking with the pivot on my toes and, at least for the thai kick, it doesn't work out so well. That telegraphing you mentioend is a problem that I solve by punching or checking for a second with the hand on the kicking side. That generally distracts them enough to get the kick, and can even cause some pain.

This is what I mean: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s5iTWCwlZyM
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#429741 - 09/06/10 12:35 PM Re: Low kick pivot [Re: Stormdragon]
matt_mcg Offline
Member

Registered: 03/08/06
Posts: 113
I'd worry that the immobility is going to lead to regrets soon or later. You can't really rely on that sort of distracting move, or broken time. Advanced kickers are going to be used to it, I'd expect. If you are on your heel and someone lifts their leg over your low kick and front kicks you -- which'd be a standard savate type reply to a low kick -- for example, you'd struggle to recover, I'd have thought?

I might be wrong, of course, but I can see lots of ways in which a problem might arise.

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#429742 - 09/06/10 12:40 PM Re: Low kick pivot [Re: matt_mcg]
matt_mcg Offline
Member

Registered: 03/08/06
Posts: 113
Incidentally, Rutten pivots on the ball of his foot a lot in that vid. He plants the foot with the step and then rotates on the ball.
Look at the kick on 3min and again at 3:10/3:11. Same again at 3:30/3:35-ish.

[Can't listen to the audio on this computer, so I am going by visuals only]

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#429769 - 09/06/10 10:43 PM Re: Low kick pivot [Re: matt_mcg]
Stormdragon Offline
Who Dares Wins
Professional Poster

Registered: 08/05/04
Posts: 3409
Loc: Salem, OR
Ok well I guess I don't pivot on my heel entirely then because as far as it looks to me (I just did a few to check closely) it's almost exactly the same as he does it except my upper body moves just a tad differently. He says in the vid though "some teachers say pivot on the ball of your foot...don't do it, trust me you'll have more power pivoting on your heel."

Your points o nthe vulnerabilities of that method are definitely valid, I'm sure more sparring will either show me that it's nto a good method or betetr yet I'll find ways to nullify those counters. I've only been kicking with that style (the thai way as opposed to Karate or TKD kicking) for a short time.
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Member of DaJoGen MMA school under Dave Hagen and Team Chaos fight team under Denver Mangiyatan and Chris Toquero, ran out of Zanshin Martial Arts in Salem Oregon: http://www.zanshinarts.org/Home.aspx,

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#429846 - 09/09/10 01:50 PM Re: Low kick pivot [Re: Stormdragon]
matxtx Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 07/12/05
Posts: 700
Loc: england
Id say the ball of the foot and for safety reasons amongst other things. The foot has to be free to be dynamic and using the heel will put a break on the foot but the knee might keep going and its going to damage them over time. I heard not long ago Bas Rutten found it hard getting to the end of his drive because of injuries. It probably from all sorts of things.
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