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#430285 - 10/02/10 05:49 PM Re: Low kick pivot [Re: Kimo2007]
matxtx Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 07/12/05
Posts: 700
Loc: england
When running if we dont use our arms we go slower. Using the arms helps with acceleration of the legs and that goes for kicking too, using similar fundamentals as running in the kick.
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#430286 - 10/02/10 06:14 PM Re: Low kick pivot [Re: matxtx]
Kimo2007 Offline
Veteran

Registered: 03/31/07
Posts: 1057
Quote:
Every top fighter uses the arms in kicking somehow .


Uses, yes. It's a matter of degree and timing. Body mechanics require some movement, we don't kick in complete isolation.

The things I'm trying to point out are pre-movement, throwing the arms then the kick, and/or excessive arm swinging, which leaves the fighter out of position or over committed
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#430287 - 10/02/10 06:58 PM Re: Low kick pivot [Re: matxtx]
Kimo2007 Offline
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Registered: 03/31/07
Posts: 1057
Quote:
Using the arms helps with acceleration of the legs


Not quite. The arms allow us to displace more mass forward so that we can run faster without falling on our face. Does it aide in the body mechanics of turning our legs over faster, sure. But's real function is balance and counter balance of mass so a sprinter can lean in and forward that much more.

A kick is also different in it's about transfer of force, you generate then transfer to the target.

So, it's not that you are wrong. Pump your arms makes you run faster, just like swinging you arms back make you kick harder. It's why it's happening that is different.

Here's a thought, maximize was to increase acceleration first, before increasing mass via extra arm movement.

In other words, if you can learn to launch the kick, get get hip turn over and rotation, while keeping your hands in guard first...then see how much other hand movement is really needed or helpful. IMO you'd have faster more powerful kicks, and you have not even tapped into the added mass of throwing the arms yet.

But then, I'm just a guy trying to avoid fixing my yard lights by running his mouth on a blog...
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#430289 - 10/02/10 08:47 PM Re: Low kick pivot [Re: Kimo2007]
Stormdragon Offline
Who Dares Wins
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Registered: 08/05/04
Posts: 3409
Loc: Salem, OR
I get the physics thing (the borred mass you mentioned). The question you asked is, is it worthwhile to have that? I say it can be, but you you can still hurt people without it. It depends. If I step and throw that arm a lot but just throw the kick out of nowhere then you're absolutely right, it's unnacceptably dangerous. I like that extra power so when I want to use it, I mask the step with punchs and I throw that arm, not from my guard, but from the end of a punch (i.e. I'll throw a cross and when I retract it I jsut bring it farther back into that arm swing). Will I always use those extra motions? No, but I like to at times and so far no one has actually gone beyond just blocking my kicks and counter punched throw the openings that are left for a moment or caught me when I step. If that starts happening all the time then I'll know it's a bad idea, so far it hasn't.
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#430298 - 10/04/10 06:11 AM Re: Low kick pivot [Re: Stormdragon]
matt_mcg Offline
Member

Registered: 03/08/06
Posts: 113
A good kicker can and will kick you in the face when your guard drops if you aren't careful with arm movement when kicking. Particularly if there's something about your movement that telegraphs where your kick is aimed. Some of those head kicks might be less practical in MMA where takedowns are allowed -- I don't know, I train in a pure punch/kick style, so don't normally have to worry about being taken down myself -- but it's certainly true that fast kickers can use them effectively.

That said, I think very very few people are capable of eliminating all arm movement, at all times, and there are no doubt times when you wouldn't want to eliminate arm movement.

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#430304 - 10/04/10 07:43 PM Re: Low kick pivot [Re: matt_mcg]
Stormdragon Offline
Who Dares Wins
Professional Poster

Registered: 08/05/04
Posts: 3409
Loc: Salem, OR
Hasn't happened yet. Obviously you have to be careful but you will always be vulnerable somewhere. If you're worried about any kind of risks at all than you should never kick period. Guys don't become champions by never having any open spots, if you do that you'll never even throw a punch. There must be a reason why every (literally every) mma fighter and kickboxer uses arm motion when throwing round kicks.

Not only are few people capable of eliminating arm movement at all times, it would be stupid to do that. When I throw round kicks I throw that arm out a little, that leaves me open, that's why I angle my head and shoulders away a little bit and use punches to set up the kick. And that arm coems back up fast. It makes you no more vulnerable than throwing an uppercut.
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#430330 - 10/06/10 05:32 PM Re: Low kick pivot [Re: Kimo2007]
matxtx Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 07/12/05
Posts: 700
Loc: england
Originally Posted By: Kimo2007
Quote:
Every top fighter uses the arms in kicking somehow .


Uses, yes. It's a matter of degree and timing. Body mechanics require some movement, we don't kick in complete isolation.

The things I'm trying to point out are pre-movement, throwing the arms then the kick, and/or excessive arm swinging, which leaves the fighter out of position or over committed


Thats part of learning to fight though.If a person cant do something in a fight which is fundamental then its just needs training and understanding. Anything anyone does in a fight could show pre-movement or leave a fighter out of position. We dont just stop doing things we learn how to do what we need to do in the context of the fight.
_________________________
I point my saxaphone at the rare Booted Gorilla.

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#430331 - 10/06/10 05:40 PM Re: Low kick pivot [Re: Kimo2007]
matxtx Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 07/12/05
Posts: 700
Loc: england
Originally Posted By: Kimo2007
Quote:
Using the arms helps with acceleration of the legs


Not quite. The arms allow us to displace more mass forward so that we can run faster without falling on our face. Does it aide in the body mechanics of turning our legs over faster, sure. But's real function is balance and counter balance of mass so a sprinter can lean in and forward that much more.

A kick is also different in it's about transfer of force, you generate then transfer to the target.

So, it's not that you are wrong. Pump your arms makes you run faster, just like swinging you arms back make you kick harder. It's why it's happening that is different.

Here's a thought, maximize was to increase acceleration first, before increasing mass via extra arm movement.

In other words, if you can learn to launch the kick, get get hip turn over and rotation, while keeping your hands in guard first...then see how much other hand movement is really needed or helpful. IMO you'd have faster more powerful kicks, and you have not even tapped into the added mass of throwing the arms yet.

But then, I'm just a guy trying to avoid fixing my yard lights by running his mouth on a blog...


I just dont agree. The arms help increase everything. The whole body should be used. How its used in the context of the fight isnt easy to describe its got to be shown or learnt through doing rather than writing so theres no point going too deep. The body should work as one commited whole especialy in a full contact fight where things cant half arsed so just using the lower half or just the hips just isnt going flow or doesnt fit with how the body moves when its in action expecial when in danger.
_________________________
I point my saxaphone at the rare Booted Gorilla.

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#430339 - 10/06/10 11:58 PM Re: Low kick pivot [Re: matxtx]
Kimo2007 Offline
Veteran

Registered: 03/31/07
Posts: 1057
Quote:
I just dont agree. The arms help increase everything.


Well that's fine, but I think we might disagree on method. If you go back to my earlier post I briefly touch on the math of power and the method of delivery. By understanding the math, you can tweak on the method in a more detailed way. IMO.

I agree the whole body needs to work together, the idea that you eliminate the arms completely is taking things to far to other extreme, my concept is efficient use of the arms to maximizes power, within the fight and also the other considerations a fighter has for his arms before during and after the kick. Be it guard, telegraph, follow up strikes, what have you.

I give you the example of the first video where the fighter dropped his arms down as he executed a front thrust kick. He could achieve the same kick, and chambered to a follow up cross, overhand, jab...my point is he could have put his hands in a much more advantageous position then down by his waist. Without loss of power. No bio mechanical reason for his arm movement. Which tells me, he knows how to deliver the power but may not know thy "why" behind it.

Same point I was trying to make with your running analogy. It was not incorrect, and neither is most of your philosophy. It's just about degree, and your also right, hard to get deep in words on the internet so I'll stop trying to keep making the same points when without being there to show you it doesn't help and it's not like there some great martial tragedy happening here or anything.

Side note, Cord posted a video of a guy who showed great arms/leg coordination. I almost wanted to grab the video and edit out some examples of him using kicks with lower body power and arm control with follow up and position that sort of pointed out what I was trying to say.

Not sure if you can rip video off YouTube and edit and do that, but if I have some free time I might give it a shot and post, to further the conversation.
_________________________
Undefeated in all of Asia!

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#430351 - 10/07/10 01:14 PM Re: Low kick pivot [Re: matt_mcg]
Ronin1966 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 04/26/02
Posts: 3116
Loc: East Coast, United States
Hello matt_mcg:

Any kick reduces balance by 50%. And regardless of height, if it makes solid contact on the defender that's bad. Arm position can be a deliberate tactic, a "fake". But as you suggest, its probably a baaaaad plan in general to take that risk.

Jeff

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