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#430257 - 10/01/10 02:04 PM Re: Low kick pivot [Re: Stormdragon]
matxtx Offline
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Registered: 07/12/05
Posts: 700
Loc: england
It all has to be dynamic. The use of the arms is not a slow thing its rapid and in unison or a flow with whatevers going on. Fighters should be always moving somehow so a dynamic rapid movement is not seen as much or as a telagraph.
I have had it explained to me that it is like squeezing the last bit of toothpaste out of a tube with two hands. The top hand twists one way the bottom twist the other. To punch its from the floor upwards and to kick its from the head downwards. The leg is released by the rapid movement of the body.

I like this clip because its a good view to see how the pros do it. Do it how the up to date pro,succesfull fighters are doing it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4_1E5zoMzPM&feature=related
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#430263 - 10/01/10 05:55 PM Re: Low kick pivot [Re: matt_mcg]
Kimo2007 Offline
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Registered: 03/31/07
Posts: 1057
Quote:
However, stepping can often be useful. You can use sidesteps or diagonal footwork to transition between different kicking angles, or between legs, or to change the range from punching to kicking, to make sure your movement isn't predictably straight back and forth, and so on. So a fairly standard thing would be to step off to the right when kicking with the left leg and throw a toe kick into the 'plex and then step straight back the other way and do a low kick with the right leg to the thigh, for example.


And I think that is a direct example of marrying the kick to footwork as opposed to demonstrating them isolation.

Let me go on to add that I don't mean to imply there in no movement at all in the arms or other parts of the body, I'm referring to exaggerated or unnecessary movement that is added to the kick, or feels natural when you begin training which is inefficient. The body mechanics dictate a certain amount movement in order to execute kick correctly, just not a full whole sale throwing of the arms which is often see and taught.
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#430264 - 10/01/10 06:05 PM Re: Low kick pivot [Re: matxtx]
Kimo2007 Offline
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Registered: 03/31/07
Posts: 1057
Quote:
like this clip because its a good view to see how the pros do it


I see some problems with the clip, even though he is a pro. See the way he throws his hands down to execute his front thrust kick? His round house begins often with the same exact hand movement prior to the kick. A full beat before the kick comes out.

Now, I'm not a pro fighter by any means, and he's quick enough that for me it probably wouldn't matter that I see it because, where am I going to go. But, that said. It's the exact sort of thing I would look for if I was sparring him. Now, maybe in a more fluid environment he would mask it better,but why need to mask it at all? Whatever extra snap he's getting with that setup he's losing by tipping off what's coming. If he's a pro, he's fighting other pros right?

I would guess that kick would see a lot of counters from guys of equal speed and ability. Just my take.
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#430267 - 10/01/10 07:23 PM Re: Low kick pivot [Re: MattJ]
JMWcorwin Offline
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Registered: 07/13/07
Posts: 731
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I have to roll with Kimo on this one. The kick should be launhed with the kicknig leg, not by stepping. You push off with your kicking leg, then drive your hips through the target while twisting that front foot, not stepping first. The guys I spar wiht would have a field day with that first step. We are always looking for a kick as an opportunity to throw. And most of us can throw an opponent from a quick, front let kick that wasn't overly telegraphed. Take that step first and you're going to spend a lot of time eating mat. (or asphalt as the case may be) I watched a match where a Thai Boxer was fighting one of our HKD bb's. Because he did that little step before every kick, and he rarely through any other kick than that rounhouse, he had a really long night. He must've hit the canvas 12 to 15 times during a 3 round fight. And most of them were him landing face first. (he didn't know how to fall well and managed to make it harder on himself)

As for the arm, I am stil not convinced that the arm movement itself is generating any huge gains in power. It's simply your body trying to find balance. So, when you leg goes out to the front, it goes out to the back to act as a counter weight. Or it goes behind and forward a bit to offset the backward lean that us stiff guys need to do to make that kick land anywhere above the knees. I think that any power gains are simply falsely percieved because it feels comfortable. (MHO of course) Your balance is more natural so you feel better about the kick which gives you the confidence to throw all out. So, you're throwing the kick harder because you're a tad more comfortable, not from any direct correlation between backward arm movement and force moving forward. It takes more practice to learn to throw it a bit more upright an with guard intact. Any power loss is minimal, and I've seen plenty of people go to sleep from this 'weaker' kick is more than made up for in gains in position and protection. (IMHO again)

I really think that is one of the great myths of modern martial arts. But, there's still enough poeple teaching the concept (and it FEELS right) that it has managed to hang around. At the very least, it inhibits your ability to move through your complete range of forward motion unimpeded. You're limited by how much the hips and body can rotate before the extended arm is dragging behind, defining the end of your range of motion and marking your face as a target while you reset your stance.

So, I agree with you that these things are a bit of a tradeoff and a matter of choice for most. But, I'll stick with keepimg my hands up & my movements disguised. Anyone else, feel free to use whatever techniques you feel comfortable with.
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#430269 - 10/02/10 03:47 AM Re: Low kick pivot [Re: JMWcorwin]
Stormdragon Offline
Who Dares Wins
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Corwin-I can see your point however, and while I agree that moving your arm to counterbalance when you kick is largely about keeping stable, it actually does generate more power, unless you disagree with physicas. Every action has an equal and opposite reaction. If you quick and throw an arm back that force is propelling your body with equal force the other way (with the quick). Try it on a heavy bag, throw your best quicks with and without arm movement and there is a definite difference in power. However it's not necessairly crucial to have that extra power, though I personally like it. Also, you will still hurt someone plenty even without much power, the leg is powerful even if you don't move it much.

Keeping balance is an even more important use for that arm movement imo though. If you can make it work (not doing that arm thing) that's cool too. I was taught in kenpo to not really take either arm out of your guard at all when kicking. I never liked it at all but some people prefer that. I'm suprised this topic hasn't come up before it's pretty funadmental stuff with a lot of conflicting theories.

That guy that got thrown a lot, was he throwing high kicks? I can't see too many people (even BB's) countering say, one of my foot jabs or low round kicks with a throw. Now a mid to high round kick is another story (and why I almost never throw them).

Abouting stepping before kicking, isn't that the hwole idea behind the cut (or switch kick,) kick and why that works?
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#430278 - 10/02/10 01:10 PM Re: Low kick pivot [Re: Kimo2007]
matxtx Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 07/12/05
Posts: 700
Loc: england
Originally Posted By: Kimo2007
Quote:
like this clip because its a good view to see how the pros do it


I see some problems with the clip, even though he is a pro. See the way he throws his hands down to execute his front thrust kick? His round house begins often with the same exact hand movement prior to the kick. A full beat before the kick comes out.

Now, I'm not a pro fighter by any means, and he's quick enough that for me it probably wouldn't matter that I see it because, where am I going to go. But, that said. It's the exact sort of thing I would look for if I was sparring him. Now, maybe in a more fluid environment he would mask it better,but why need to mask it at all? Whatever extra snap he's getting with that setup he's losing by tipping off what's coming. If he's a pro, he's fighting other pros right?

I would guess that kick would see a lot of counters from guys of equal speed and ability. Just my take.



Respectfully,we know thats not true as this way of kicking is done in top level fights and had been for years

http://www.youtube.com/watch?gl=GB&hl=en-GB&v=WDd-7mFpyas

Whats done in the fight is important not the spar or even in training.

Looking at the fight is different to being there as then its just you looking at the opponent and your seeing it totaly differently. I can sit here and say somethings telegraphed or wrong but facing it with everything else going on all at the same time and its not the same. Theres timing,theres faking,theres hands knees elbows clinching all coming at you,theres constant movement on both sides. Its a different world facing it.
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#430279 - 10/02/10 01:20 PM Re: Low kick pivot [Re: matxtx]
TeK9 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/22/05
Posts: 2257
Loc: Northern California, USA
Whats up Storm,

I've got the entire Bas Rutten Set. I found it odd also how he emphasized pivoting from the heel rather than the ball of the foot. Especially since he himself is a black belt in taekwondo. But watching his other tapes you see that he favors low and wide stances which emphasize power and balance rather than speed. And upon further inspection you see that he is in fact pivoting with the ball of the foot just not holding himself high up there like most other kickers do. He likes to keep his heel dug in for more balance and old school power. Different from thai/tkd fighters who keep high stances when they kick. They really like to stand high on the ball of he supporting foot.

Check out his stance and punching tape. When he first explains why he keeps a square stance. And how he prefers punching with power and doesn't use a jab, but a hard straight punch.
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does not surpass his
master" - Leonardo Da
Vinci

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#430281 - 10/02/10 03:22 PM Re: Low kick pivot [Re: matxtx]
Kimo2007 Offline
Veteran

Registered: 03/31/07
Posts: 1057
Quote:
Respectfully,we know thats not true as this way of kicking is done in top level fights and had been for years


Well respectfully I watched the fight and in the first minute I saw kicks, blocked, a take down, a fighter step out of range. All of them had a similar hand movement prior to the kick.

I see it as a stylistic problem. Within the match you see other kicks thrown in exchanges, without the extra hand movement that land more effectively.

I am a fan of Muay Thai, train in 2-3 times a week. So I'm not knocking it, just voicing my opinion about what I see as a flaw in the style VS what I see in other kicking games.
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#430282 - 10/02/10 04:17 PM Re: Low kick pivot [Re: Stormdragon]
Kimo2007 Offline
Veteran

Registered: 03/31/07
Posts: 1057
Quote:
it actually does generate more power, unless you disagree with physicas. Every action has an equal and opposite reaction.


Storm, I post on this topic every once in awhile because I think it's very important, not often understood or discussed in most schools and can really help dissect why you do something in contrast to how you do something.

Basically with power you have to consider 2 things.

Physics of power generation, which is math and cannot be disputed.

Method of power generation, which is technique (or the how) which is always up for discussion.

On the Physics side of things, Force=Mass x Acceleration.

Which for the kick in discussion is probably the main overlying principle to consider. (there are many others but to keep the post short I'll just speak to this one)

So to your and Corwin's points. He said the power increase is minimal, you said it increases power. But do you know why?

So, first acceleration of the leg is created almost entirely by the hip, I think we all can agree on that. Throwing the arms helps, in a small way to free up the hips so it "feels" easier to throw the leg, as does taking the step, but these are really just technique issues that can be solved with training. A good kicker can achieve similar leg acceleration with little or almost no arm throwing just by using proper footwork and hip rotation.

Where the arms come into play, and you touched on it with opposite reaction, as Corwin did with balance, is Mass. By throwing the arms out when you kick through the target, you are in essence borrowing more mass. Kenpo guys would call it back up mass (though we are using torque to get it).

So, you correct to say that throwing an arm back increases power in a kick. F=MxA. You have increased your M, but, the real question is by how much, and is it enough to warrant what you are giving up for the small amount of extra power you might be able to achieve?

This is where method separates from Physics. Corwin (and it's nice to have someone in my corner) and I both seem to agree that there is plenty of mass and acceleration already available in the kick, and speed of delivery to target, hand position and other factors outweigh and slight power gains you can get with throwing the hands on a kick.

Others of course feel differently, but method can be argued all day, and it's really about what works for you.

Quote:
Abouting stepping before kicking, isn't that the hwole idea behind the cut (or switch kick,) kick and why that works?


I think it's important to remember the difference between a cut, which has a defined timing purpose, and step which does not. The cut works because it's meant to confuse your opponent, they guard the first move (the cut) and then the attack comes. Imagine if the kick had a step before it (after the cut). Would it still work? Probably never. But that is what is being taught and shown in these videos, a kick with 1-2 moves before the attack.

I work mitts with people all the time where we call out combinations and strikes, and I see it happen. Call for a jab, pow. Call for jab-cross, Pow Pow, call for round house, reach, step kick. I'm like no man just kick, like I just saw a pretty girl in the stands, take me out! Reach, step...I'm in row 3 brother...
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#430284 - 10/02/10 05:39 PM Re: Low kick pivot [Re: Kimo2007]
matxtx Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 07/12/05
Posts: 700
Loc: england
I dont know where your coming from realy. Every top fighter uses the arms in kicking somehow . It might be subtle at times it might not be ,it might be in the flow of a fight or whatver yet its used. Its a fundamental of kicking,and even kneeing in the open or closed position. If you dont agree thats cool yet I have to go with the people who teach me and every top fighter I see and id urge anyone to. Its there to see..watch the top fighters.
Id be genuinly interested to see any top fighter who doesnt.
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