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#430213 - 09/28/10 02:50 PM Re: Low kick pivot [Re: matt_mcg]
Ames Offline
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Registered: 05/29/05
Posts: 1117
You know, it's a damn shame that venues like K1 don't allow savateurs to wear shoes...
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#430214 - 09/28/10 03:18 PM Re: Low kick pivot [Re: Ames]
matxtx Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 07/12/05
Posts: 700
Loc: england
The thing with the arm going behind is that the shoulder should still stay high to protect the chin and arm doesnt have to go all the way behind,just as long as there is coupling effect and rapid use of the arms and upper body. Also the other arms shoulder is up and the arm is helping to cover the face by being in a position similar to a traditional high block out of TKD or karate,yet tighter ,not just staying still in its original gaurd position. Both arms are used for momentum using a coupling effect. Thats how I have been taught.

Saying all that another Thai instructor has taught me to keep a gaurd one side and have the arm on the kicking leg side out in front like I am putting my hand in their face. I do both depending who I train with and whats going on.

The key is the shoulder protects the chin.PROTECT THE CHIN. The chin getting hit will more likely cause a knockout. A straight strike to other areas of the face will hurt and damage yet you will still be conscious and stand more of a chance.


Edited by matxtx (09/28/10 03:19 PM)
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#430218 - 09/29/10 12:29 AM Re: Low kick pivot [Re: matxtx]
Stormdragon Offline
Who Dares Wins
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Registered: 08/05/04
Posts: 3409
Loc: Salem, OR
Ok I think I misunderstood him, I think I just was throwing that arm a bit too far and not getting it back fast enough. I understand about using the shoulders to guard the chin.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4YpCcJ2SnDs&feature=related

Yeah I definitely don't bring my heel off the ground like that and I don't plan on it. I don't know how you can do that and keep your balance. After slowing down my kick, I have found that I have pretty much even weight distribution on the pivoting foot. Even when I pivot more on the ball like my instructor teaches it's still pretty even. Just doesn't feel right going all the way on the ball like that.
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#430229 - 09/30/10 10:46 AM Re: Low kick pivot [Re: Stormdragon]
Kimo2007 Offline
Veteran

Registered: 03/31/07
Posts: 1057
Quote:
he more arm swing I get. Swinging the arm seems to improve the power


Matt said the above quote and from Storms video I take issue with a couple of things.

And my coaches teach the step first concept too, so opinions vary here but, I am a firm believer in move first from the striking weapon. Launch your kick and adjust your body as you move, or set up the kick via foot work to mask your intentions. But to train to step first then kick, too me is training to telegraph horribly.

I spar guys all the time and I see them coming a mile away when they step like that, I move about as fast as the Pyramids so maybe out of survival I've learn to be more perceptive because I have too, power is useless if you can't hit anyone with it and I think you need to be able to launch the kick directly from where you are. The power comes from the hips anyway, train to get tight fast hip rotation and let the leg go along for the ride. You'll be faster and more powerful than any step will ever make you. IMO.

Arms...OY! You, grasshopper, are not Chubby Checker, this is not American Bandstand, and you are not doing the twist.

The Irish have proven, you do not need your arms to dance! Nor do you need them to kick! While it may feel natural, and by swinging them one way, it seems you can get a harder hip twist the other, it's perceived benefit comes as great cost.

Instead of swinging your arms, trying just pinching your elbows into your body while keeping your hands in guard. I think you'll find with a little practice you will feel more like a fighter and less like a Rockett.

OK in fairness, laws of physics and opposite reaction would say by swinging your arms out, or reaching as shown in the video, you can extend and generate more hip rotation and in theory more power...I am mostly being funny because I was coached up by a guy who thought he was Don Rickles half the time. But that IMO is sort of basic and in fight application you have to look at the bigger picture and realize that guard and hand position outweighs any slight benefit of reaching for added torque when you can get almost the same torque and power with good overall technique, and, that there are many more factors in power as well.

Another good point in that video was angle of incidence. Cung Le is a guy who is/was (not sure if he is still fighting) great at landing kicks almost like jabs, but terrible at turning his hips, thus leaving a lot of power off the table. I found it surprising that such a technical guy seemed so lacking in such a basic fundamental, but I guess it goes to show you how fragmented MA training was before the mid 90's.

Sorry, Matt...I'm sure you're an excellent dancer.
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#430232 - 09/30/10 12:13 PM Re: Low kick pivot [Re: Kimo2007]
MattJ Offline
Free Rhinoplasty!
Prolific

Registered: 11/25/04
Posts: 15634
Loc: York PA. USA
Kimo -

Quote:
And my coaches teach the step first concept too, so opinions vary here but, I am a firm believer in move first from the striking weapon. Launch your kick and adjust your body as you move, or set up the kick via foot work to mask your intentions.


Agreed, and this is what I was taught in kenpo from day one.

Quote:
But to train to step first then kick, too me is training to telegraph horribly.


It is a bit of a telegraph, but using proper footwork/hand technique will minimize it. MMA guys (Ex: Dominick Cruz) routinely use hands to set up low kicks very effectively. Stepping in will certainly increase power (think marriage of gravity or launching). People doing this are weighing the cost of the telegraph against the power advantage of stepping in. Not wrong, just a choice.

Quote:
But that IMO is sort of basic and in fight application you have to look at the bigger picture and realize that guard and hand position outweighs any slight benefit of reaching for added torque when you can get almost the same torque and power with good overall technique, and, that there are many more factors in power as well.


Highlighting your opinions to point out your choices, which may not be the same for someone else. Other styles may prize KO above everything else, and train to be able to take shots to get their own. I have worked out with folks like that, and it is a valid strategy. Not wrong, just a choice.

FWIW, I make every effort to keep my guard up when striking, but I have noticed that max-power roundhouse kicks tend to get my arms swinging. I get by often because my opposite arm swings across to cover my face.

And Cung Le has pretty good power, from what I remember. Didn't he break Frank Shamrocks's arm with a RH kick? I seem to remember him kicking Scott Smith around the cage like a soccer ball, too.
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#430244 - 10/01/10 12:29 AM Re: Low kick pivot [Re: MattJ]
Stormdragon Offline
Who Dares Wins
Professional Poster

Registered: 08/05/04
Posts: 3409
Loc: Salem, OR
After another night of kicks, I think I'm going to focus on training my instructors approach but I'm still going to work the Bas Rutten style a fair amount simply because I like how powerful and stable it feels, and I really think you can avoid getting caught if you set it up well with punches. also, that step helps put you off line from an attack. My instructor doesn't really pivot at all hardly which I don't like but I'm trying to get good at kicking hard while not moving that foot or the hand on the kicking side TOO much. I see no reason not to have both options, they both have perks. My instructor did prove today (painfully) that you can really make it land hard without too much motion. I still don't plan on bringing my heel completely off the ground though. I see no benefit to that.

My mma school is proving to be very good. These first few weeks we sparred once (we roll every day though). Right now they are drilling the fundamentals to hell, just the most basic skills over and over and over and over and over ad nauseum. Which is perfect. However, every technique is trained "live" with varying levels of resistance. Usually 30% or so, and then we roll 80-100%. First time we try a technique it's zero resistance then we add just a little. It's good stuff.
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#430245 - 10/01/10 01:05 AM Re: Low kick pivot [Re: MattJ]
Kimo2007 Offline
Veteran

Registered: 03/31/07
Posts: 1057
Quote:
MMA guys (Ex: Dominick Cruz) routinely use hands to set up low kicks very effectively.


I agree and I would say that using hands to set up a leg kick is great, but different than training to step and kick every time. Personally I think the way you first learn to kick is how you kick. It's a lot easier to add a step in foot work later, than to take it away.

So, my point was more about in isolation as it was being shown in the video, with 2 moves before the kick, you are ingraining habits that would then have to be stripped away later.

I would train just the kick, hands tight, hip and kick... then add the movement, then add the step as a part of the footwork so it flowed. This way when a new fighter goes to kick he can kick from anywhere, not have this 2 beat process then kick.

I would also clarify that while I believe you lead with the striking weapon, that is not absolute either. Sometimes you launch and hold the weapon back to disrupt timing, then throw. But it's by design, not technique if you follow my meaning.

Quote:
Highlighting your opinions to point out your choices, which may not be the same for someone else.


Fair enough, I've never been one to say that one size fits all. You need to put things together in a way that works for you. But power isn't much use if it can't get to the target, or if leaves you so open to counter technique it's only useful against a much lessor, or unlucky opponent.

Quote:
FWIW, I make every effort to keep my guard up when striking, but I have noticed that max-power roundhouse kicks tend to get my arms swinging. I get by often because my opposite arm swings across to cover my face.


Of course, and it's quite feasible to find a happy medium to do both, it just doesn't lend itself nearly as well to my witty contrast between Chubby Checker and Michael Flatterly's Lord of the Dance...

Quote:
And Cung Le has pretty good power,


One of my favorite fighters of a few years ago, and I don't mean he had NO power. But he often landed kicks where he didn't engage his hips and his power was greatly reduced from what it could have been. Just because he won the fights, doesn't mean he couldn't have fought better.
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Undefeated in all of Asia!

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#430249 - 10/01/10 07:14 AM Re: Low kick pivot [Re: Kimo2007]
Stormdragon Offline
Who Dares Wins
Professional Poster

Registered: 08/05/04
Posts: 3409
Loc: Salem, OR
Even my instructor who advocates very little if any arm swinging still does it enough for me to notice when he does a low kick full speed. I think it's safe to say that it's ok to do, the problem people have is letting it linger a bit too long or throwing it TOO far. Minimize it as much as possible and you're good. I actually angle my head and shoulders down and towards the 5 oclock or so just a bit to avoid those punches.
_________________________
Member of DaJoGen MMA school under Dave Hagen and Team Chaos fight team under Denver Mangiyatan and Chris Toquero, ran out of Zanshin Martial Arts in Salem Oregon: http://www.zanshinarts.org/Home.aspx,

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#430250 - 10/01/10 08:26 AM Re: Low kick pivot [Re: Stormdragon]
matt_mcg Offline
Member

Registered: 03/08/06
Posts: 113
In savate, or at least in the classes I've trained in, we work on learning distance so that you can throw kicks with no setup or movement, and with no telegraphing. One of the things I try to eradicate in students is that constant shuffling/hopping thing, and the urge to always step forward to kick. Esp. when people close up their feet together prior to kicking. If you are at the right range, you should be able to just pivot and go without moving the feet at all.

However, stepping can often be useful. You can use sidesteps or diagonal footwork to transition between different kicking angles, or between legs, or to change the range from punching to kicking, to make sure your movement isn't predictably straight back and forth, and so on. So a fairly standard thing would be to step off to the right when kicking with the left leg and throw a toe kick into the 'plex and then step straight back the other way and do a low kick with the right leg to the thigh, for example.

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#430252 - 10/01/10 10:42 AM Re: Low kick pivot [Re: matt_mcg]
Stormdragon Offline
Who Dares Wins
Professional Poster

Registered: 08/05/04
Posts: 3409
Loc: Salem, OR
When I say set up I'm refering to other stuff used as distraction to create an opening. Like throwing a cross followed by a low round kick or something.
_________________________
Member of DaJoGen MMA school under Dave Hagen and Team Chaos fight team under Denver Mangiyatan and Chris Toquero, ran out of Zanshin Martial Arts in Salem Oregon: http://www.zanshinarts.org/Home.aspx,

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