Some terms get tossed around pretty freely. The term "discipline" is certainly one of them. When you use that term, what exacty do you mean by it?

What are examples of this idea, which you feel are fundamental to our many practices? Consider are discipline and self-discipline the same or sometimes different creatures?

Jeff

Wow...nobody has thoughts about one of the most tossed around "buzz words" with which all martial arts are surely described???

What does the term discipline mean, when you use it? What does it suggest/imply ?


Jeff

~...Success: going from failure to failure without loss of enthuasium...~ Sir Winston Churchill

I was waiting for senior members of the forum to say sth, but since nobody has, I'll bite!

To me, discipline means --
* deciding on longterm goals and making short-term plans to get there
* lack of easy distractibility from both longterm goals and short-term plans
* ability to make changes in plans when necessary without losing the goals in the process
* reassessing goals regularly at some long interval, but not in response to every difficulty

I think that SOME of the people labelled "undisciplined" may in fact be VERY disciplined in terms of their own goals, but are being judged against someone ELSE'S goals and plans.

This might be the difference between "discipline" for children (always judged against adults' goals and plans) and "discipline" for adults, which people may more often judge in terms of the person's own goals, if any.

Years ago when I ran for distance, I discovered a great truth about discipline. Never make any important decisions while running up hill.
Translation: do not stampede yourself into something that could be damaging and/or you will regret forever.

Hello hope:

First, thank you for taking part!

The internet is the "great equalizer", no need for ~subservience~ here. Rank, seniority is literally irrelevent in this medium. As long as we're all friendly about our positions... its all good IMHV.

Speak up... ideas will stand on their own merits, or their lack.
In the context of martial arts, how does discipline present itself? A definite commitment is understandable.

<<judged against someone ELSE'S goals and plans.

Excellent point.

What happens when the individual has no "goal" per se. No overall or master plan. Can there still be discipline without a proverbial map, or schedule (ie guide)?

There is also ~discipline~ which is a group behavior issue, a certain "group think" if you will. Is that the same thing as personal self discipline? Is group cohesion the same thing as discipline?

Jeff

In adults, IMO, no goal = no discipline. The goal can be personal or accepted/adopted from others eg. from parents, teachers, bosses, even nations (a soldier's overall goal might be to serve his/her country, and that country's shorter-term goals will become his/hers). However, if there is no goal, what otherwise would look like commitment and perseverance starts to seem like habit, obsession, compulsion, or peer pressure, to me.

Discipline - the responsibility of the instructor to instill it to their students.

*something that is studied carefully
*knowing what is right and wrong, how you behave around others
*followed as a way of life

Self-discipline - The responsibility lies with the student.
*is controlling oneself; self-restraining but at the same time believing in one's abilities
*strict adherence to rules and set methods


All these in order to attain success or reach higher levels of knowledge and skill.

Hello hope:

Thank you for taking part....


<<no goal = no discipline.

Interesting distinction... so it would not be sufficent to then show up for practice, without a specific and known purpose for doing so. The mere act of showing up, at the end of a long difficult day... being extremely inconvenient to boot...

That is not an act of meaningful discipline? I want to make sure here, if we lack a particular known/acknowledged goal... it is not a "disciplined" act?

<<if there is no goal, what otherwise would look like commitment and perseverance starts to seem like habit, obsession, compulsion, or peer pressure, to me.

Without fully understanding all the deep reasons, subtleties, nuances that we do things, eliminates its label as discipline.

Just checking...
Jeff

Hello Mark Jordan:

Thank you for contributing as well!

<<Discipline - the responsibility of the instructor to instill it to their students.

Going to have to look up the precise meaning of "instill". I ask can we substitute the word share to the same effect?

I wonder if discipline can be "given" to someone else, like a coat. We can model others desired behavior(s), or perhaps a group norm of behavior even... but, I question if it is "instilled" upon me, I wonder if it can stick without punitive measures... negative enforcement.

<<*followed as a way of life

How does that work (ie smacks of pseudo-samurai)? I mean no offense, simply hoping for more detail


<<Self-discipline - The responsibility lies with the student; self-restraining but yet self-believing

Very interesing. Ok...

<<*strict adherence to rules and set methods

External or internal rules?

SIncerely,
Jeff

If I'm showing up after a long and tiring day, why am I doing so? Sometimes, only habit carries me forward in an activity for a while, especially if there is no feedback (or only negative), and I have sometimes been really grateful for my habits later. However, I'm not sure it counts as discipline, until I am (once again) doing the activity for the sake of a goal.



I don't know if a person has to or can understand all the reasons why s/he does things, or even if goals have to be conscious. If unconscious, we wouldn't necessarily KNOW if an action is disciplined, but that doesn't mean it isn't. It may not always be important to label behaviors even if an observer might find it useful to (try to) do so. Showing up and obeying rules is certainly behaviour that looks disciplined. In many cases, it may well be.

Training is often fun for me. It's interesting, tiring (in a good way), and brings me together with people whom I wouldn't meet otherwise. However, I have other reasons for wanting to train which keep me involved even though training is not always fun. These reasons will have me back on the training floor soon (my mom was in hospital for a few weeks, but is out and recovering; and the hamstring I pulled at about the same time is healing). I am training once a week again (much too little but better than nothing) and hope to increase this soon. Why? For fun sometimes, but also in service of particular goals which, in this case, happen to be conscious.