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#429856 - 09/09/10 05:01 PM Re: Low kick pivot [Re: matxtx]
Stormdragon Offline
Who Dares Wins
Professional Poster

Registered: 08/05/04
Posts: 3409
Loc: Salem, OR
Yeah it does take a lot of extra practice to make that motion smooth and fast.
_________________________
Member of DaJoGen MMA school under Dave Hagen and Team Chaos fight team under Denver Mangiyatan and Chris Toquero, ran out of Zanshin Martial Arts in Salem Oregon: http://www.zanshinarts.org/Home.aspx,

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#429870 - 09/10/10 06:52 AM Re: Low kick pivot [Re: Stormdragon]
matt_mcg Offline
Member

Registered: 03/08/06
Posts: 113
I still don't understand _why_?!

If it's going to take extra practice and if there are quite good reasons why it might not be an idea way to kick, why work at it so hard? Rather than just go with all the accumulated wisdom of the thousands and thousands of kickers in dozens of different styles who pivot from the ball of the foot on kicks that have that sort of trajectory?

I'm genuinely curious because, so far, the only reason seems to be 'power', is that right? I feel like I'm maybe missing something.

Cheers,

Matt

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#429872 - 09/10/10 10:05 AM Re: Low kick pivot [Re: matt_mcg]
matt_mcg Offline
Member

Registered: 03/08/06
Posts: 113
Reading the previous comment it's not meant to sound confrontational, btw smile I'm just a bit mystified.

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#429875 - 09/10/10 12:33 PM Re: Low kick pivot [Re: matt_mcg]
Stormdragon Offline
Who Dares Wins
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Registered: 08/05/04
Posts: 3409
Loc: Salem, OR
Because it doesn't work for me, I have a way harder time pivoting that way. IT feels awkward and unbalanced.
_________________________
Member of DaJoGen MMA school under Dave Hagen and Team Chaos fight team under Denver Mangiyatan and Chris Toquero, ran out of Zanshin Martial Arts in Salem Oregon: http://www.zanshinarts.org/Home.aspx,

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#430054 - 09/20/10 01:07 PM Re: Low kick pivot [Re: Stormdragon]
Ames Offline
Veteran

Registered: 05/29/05
Posts: 1117
I'm with in the feeling-awkward department. That being said however, I have been training with the ball of the foot for that last couple years for safety reasons.

As the other poster said, pivot on the heel during kicking puts too much pressure on the knee, and over time will likely lead to injury. There was an article in JAMA on this a few years back, where a large study was conducted, and it was shown that the torque is too great over time and will eventually damage the knee.



FWIW,
Chris
_________________________
"Seek not to follow in the footsteps of the men of old; seek what they sought."
--Basho

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#430187 - 09/27/10 07:12 PM Re: Low kick pivot [Re: Ames]
Stormdragon Offline
Who Dares Wins
Professional Poster

Registered: 08/05/04
Posts: 3409
Loc: Salem, OR
So I've been trying to use the method you guys are telling me is best and I've actually gotten to the place where it doesn't feel totally wrong. I still like the other way but I can see the value in this short pivot on the toes. I might just use that for some situations, it's definitely faster. A little less powerful but that doesn't always matter. My instructor showed me that it can still hurt plenty.
When you guys land the thai round kick do you bring the arm of the kicking side down behind the leg as a coutner balance and to generate more power like I do and I see most people doing? I bring the opposite hand up for soem proection but that kciking side arm gets thrown back to get that extra power. One instructor says that's fine, another says don't. I really don't like keeping my hands in guard and only maybe moving my elbow back a little on that kick.
_________________________
Member of DaJoGen MMA school under Dave Hagen and Team Chaos fight team under Denver Mangiyatan and Chris Toquero, ran out of Zanshin Martial Arts in Salem Oregon: http://www.zanshinarts.org/Home.aspx,

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#430202 - 09/28/10 11:50 AM Re: Low kick pivot [Re: Stormdragon]
matt_mcg Offline
Member

Registered: 03/08/06
Posts: 113
I train in savate rather than muay thai, so when I do a round style kick it's done slightly differently. The kick is chambered rather than swung through and, typically, in sport savate the standard thing to do would be to keep both hands in the guard because savate fighters are tricksy, and like to flick counter-kicks up towards your face when evading, for example. In historical savate the rear arm was swung back, but in modern sport-orientated practice it wouldn't be. Dropping your rear arm will result in getting kicked in the face. Savate round kicks can be less committed and powerful than thai kicks, though [but you are wearing shoes with hard toe caps so you don't need as much pure power].

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#430207 - 09/28/10 01:32 PM Re: Low kick pivot [Re: Stormdragon]
JMWcorwin Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 07/13/07
Posts: 731
Loc: SoCal, USA
A - Bas is pivoting on the ball of his foot, not the heel. When you pivot on the ball of your foot, the heel moves forward while the ball of the foot stays planted, by definition. If you were pivoting on the heel, it would stay still and the front of the foot would roll to the back. The telegraphing he does is in stepping while he pivots instead of just doing the pivot. This can be done w/o taking that step. I think you're misreading or misunderstanding the statement. But, watch his feet at the moment he kicks, and you will see his heel is off the ground and he's connecting to the ground with the ball of his foot. The heel touches first on the step, but the pivoting is actually done on the ball of the foot. Watch the planted foot during the last half of the kick, after the kicking leg is already off the ground:

eg:at 1:18, pause & look at his planted foot - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4YpCcJ2SnDs&feature=related
heel off the ground, pivoting on the ball

B - We pivot on the ball of the foot because that's where the center of gravity is, in the center of the foot just behind ball of the foot. Straight physics and kinesiology. If you plant your heel and spin on it, you will be off balance and tend to fall back at the end. Here's a test: stand in form, and lift your toes off the groud so your standing on your heels only. You will fall backwards. Now do the same thing standing on the balls of your feet...much easier.

C - If you throw that hand down behind your leg and get swept or thrown..you run the risk of hitting the ground with your hand there, in between your body and the ground. This can result in a dislocated shoulder. (not a theory, I've seen it happen) And the obvious, you leave that side momentarily open for a counter strike.
_________________________
There are no PERFECT techniques, only perfect execution for the situation at hand. ~Corwin

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#430208 - 09/28/10 01:38 PM Re: Low kick pivot [Re: JMWcorwin]
JMWcorwin Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 07/13/07
Posts: 731
Loc: SoCal, USA
<<------ see this foot?

like this
_________________________
There are no PERFECT techniques, only perfect execution for the situation at hand. ~Corwin

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#430211 - 09/28/10 02:36 PM Re: Low kick pivot [Re: JMWcorwin]
MattJ Offline
Free Rhinoplasty!
Prolific

Registered: 11/25/04
Posts: 15634
Loc: York PA. USA
Stormy -

The harder I throw my roundhouses, the more arm swing I get. Swinging the arm seems to improve the power, but at an obvious sacrifice in face protection. There is a compromise either way with arm up (guard) or arm down (power).
_________________________
"In case you ever wondered what it's like to be knocked out, it's like waking up from a nightmare only to discover it wasn't a dream." -Forrest Griffin

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