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#421441 - 08/10/09 05:13 AM effectiveness on men versus women
britt-tapia Offline
Stranger

Registered: 08/10/09
Posts: 1
i started krav about 3 months ago and we learn a lot of techniques that involve groin shots- for example: escaping from a headlock- how effective would these be on a woman? i am curious to know because i was jumped by three women back in november.

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#421445 - 08/10/09 08:32 AM Re: effectiveness on men versus women [Re: britt-tapia]
JKogas Offline
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Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
IMO, any technique that "relies" upon the groin shot should not be considered reliable. Many people are impervious to pain in a street fight for various reasons. Some people even wear groin cups. Have some other form of technique that isn't based on a person "deciding" to quit holding you in a headlock (or any other position/situation for that matter).

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#421492 - 08/11/09 05:12 PM Re: effectiveness on men versus women [Re: britt-tapia]
Dedicated1 Offline
Member

Registered: 12/27/05
Posts: 399
Loc: Pennsylvania, U.S.A.
The groin shot is not intended to be a fight stopper. It is only meant to disrupt the attackers thought process, enabling you to continue sending overwhelming counter attacks. Like Kogas said, some people have little to no reaction to a groin strike. So male or female it doesn't matter, send the groin strike but continue to follow through with other combatives. Never assume that any one tactic will work on everyone, every time. Remember Krav is about overwhelming your attacker and not giving his brain a chance to catch up to speed with your defenses. If you pause to see what you've done to them, you've given them a chance to process the situation and fight back.
_________________________
If your in a "Fair Fight", your tactics suck.

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#430083 - 09/22/10 10:47 AM Re: effectiveness on men versus women [Re: JKogas]
kvnkane Offline
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Registered: 09/22/10
Posts: 4
Originally Posted By: JKogas
IMO, any technique that "relies" upon the groin shot should not be considered reliable. Many people are impervious to pain in a street fight for various reasons. Some people even wear groin cups. Have some other form of technique that isn't based on a person "deciding" to quit holding you in a headlock (or any other position/situation for that matter).



i completly disagree, and i have never met anyone who is impervious to being smacked in the nuts. krav teaches more than one way to get out of a headlock anyway. and sorry to hear about you getting jumped man that seriously sucks.
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#430092 - 09/22/10 05:06 PM Re: effectiveness on men versus women [Re: kvnkane]
Prizewriter Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 10/23/05
Posts: 2573
Wow this is an old thread!

Just to say though, the groin isn't always an easy target to get at ( I know I know "Speak for youself" lol!).

Additionally, it's not as far fetched to think people may not feel pain in the groin. If a person is high or very drunk possibly it may temporarily negate the sensation of pain.

Also, as rare as it would be to meet someone who does it, Shaolin monks have exercises to condition and protect their groin:



Matthew Polly in his great book "American Shaolin" attests to witnessing first hand to a monk being kicked hard downstairs while wearing no protective gear. Polly states that as fact as he was asked to come out of the audience and kick the monk himself!!!
_________________________
"Let your food be your medicine, and your medicine be your food" Hippocrates.

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#430095 - 09/22/10 07:18 PM Re: effectiveness on men versus women [Re: kvnkane]
Ames Offline
Veteran

Registered: 05/29/05
Posts: 1117
Quote:
I completly disagree, and i have never met anyone who is impervious to being smacked in the nuts. krav teaches more than one way to get out of a headlock anyway. and sorry to hear about you getting jumped man that seriously sucks


Then you haven't met the wrong kind of people. Have you ever tried to fight someone on methamphetamine, crack or really drunk? How many live encounters have you been in (not in the academy) where you have used a "smack in the nuts", and have any of those encounters--if there are any--involved your opponent under the above influnces.

I have personally dealt with all of the above. Some times, yeah, groin shot works, often, no it doesn't. I have told a story on here before of being, what some might consider, seriously injured in that area before--and still working as a doorman for sometime before noticing that blood was dripping down my leg! I went to the bathroom and lo-and-behold, there's my testicle...I could see it through the hole in my scrotum.
_________________________
"Seek not to follow in the footsteps of the men of old; seek what they sought."
--Basho

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#430121 - 09/24/10 12:17 PM Re: effectiveness on men versus women [Re: Ames]
Kimo2007 Offline
Veteran

Registered: 03/31/07
Posts: 1057
Quote:
there's my testicle...I could see it through the hole in my scrotum.


Wow there should be a rating on this thread...you can't let a guy sitting at his desk just walk into reading something like this... cry

I'm going to be in phantom pain all day now.

On a more serious note, I agree that groin strikes are a bit overrated as targets, first as this example shows, the body will block the normal pain one might expect when the adrenaline rush hits, and second, every male walking upright is amazing good and protecting his groin, regardless of training.

Fake a shot at just about any guy and watch, they almost always in their flinch reaction protect the groin in some way.

Not to say it's not an option as a target, everything is on the table when it comes to self defense but I think was is important is to understand where the finish line is and the groin is not it.

In my opinion in self defense, besides escape of course. If stopping the attacker is your goal and you are using either striking or submission to accomplish the goal, then what you are doing is interfering with brain function to prevent the person from be capable of continuing. Period.

Everything else is simply a prelude to that. A strike or serious of strikes which disrupts brain function physically prevents a person from moving (a knockout) or a choke which cuts off oxygen to the brain which causes a person to loose consciousness, are forms of disrupting brain function and the goal of self defense technique. Everything else is a prelude to that, or a setup to get there.

It's possible an attacker might lose the will to fight prior to reaching that state due to the fear or injury of encounter, but in self defense we cannot count on or assume that.

What I do not believe, is that you teach someone to gouge the eyes or strike the groin as a delay on stop technique. While possible, it must be assumed improbable. Dominant position must be fought for, to create either the chance to strike, obtain a choke, a weapon or separation and escape.

Personally, I'm not even a big fan of separation and escape because if you are not big enough to beat a man, are you fast enough to escape them?

Self Defense to me says worse case scenario, and worse case scenario says you must stop the brain function of your attacker in order to secure you escape. That means knock out or submission...by any means necessary.

Should, other options present themselves? Running etc? Fantastic, path of least resistance. But for training, assume the worse, hope for the best.
_________________________
Undefeated in all of Asia!

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#430152 - 09/26/10 07:08 AM Re: effectiveness on men versus women [Re: JKogas]
Stormdragon Offline
Who Dares Wins
Professional Poster

Registered: 08/05/04
Posts: 3409
Loc: Salem, OR
Originally Posted By: JKogas
people are impervious to pain in a street fight for various reasons. Some people even wear groin cups. "


Well relying on any kind of striking is out then. So much for all the muay thai and boxing I've done. grin
Really though, groin strikes tend to work very well, unless you hit like a 12 year old girl. Often not fight ending but it'll certainly get a person's a teention. That's usually enough to follow up with something more likely to fully disable someone. The worst that could happen "Well that didn't work, lets try hitting the stomach". Sometimes the goin is all that's open. Whatever is there, hit it hard and hit it repeatedly.
Personally I prefer the nose but I like groin shots too. Doesn't really matter if you hit hard.
Seriously though, if a guy is coming at you and he looks hopped up on drugs or something, not much of any martial arts is likely to work, grab the nearest available weapon. Survive first, deal with the law later. Hard drugs should be considered deadly weapons. I've heard of guys who looked completely gone with various things taking multiple gun shots and continuing to fight. Yeah like any unarmed fighting is really going to work.


Edited by Stormdragon (09/26/10 07:12 AM)
_________________________
Member of DaJoGen MMA school under Dave Hagen and Team Chaos fight team under Denver Mangiyatan and Chris Toquero, ran out of Zanshin Martial Arts in Salem Oregon: http://www.zanshinarts.org/Home.aspx,

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#430212 - 09/28/10 02:39 PM Re: effectiveness on men versus women [Re: Stormdragon]
Ames Offline
Veteran

Registered: 05/29/05
Posts: 1117
Quote:
Well relying on any kind of striking is out then. So much for all the muay thai and boxing I've done. Really though, groin strikes tend to work very well, unless you hit like a 12 year old girl.


What is it that makes 12 year old girls impervious to groin attacks--does the onset of puberty increase their resistence?

Seriously though, the issue here isn't that 'groin attacks never work', it's that relying on a single 'fight ending' blow is not good s.d. training imo. A lot of techniques I've seen in krav involve a pulled kick to the groin and the person playing attacker acting as though they are really injured, bending down, whatever, so that the technique chain can be finished. I'm not saying that krav maga wouldn't have a response to missing the groin, or the groin attack not actually doing anything, just that what is out there doesn't show this reality. Considering krav's claim to fame is RBSD, I find this odd.

Neither boxing or MT training is predicated on a single fight ending blow. That is the goal, sure, but techniques are taught in a manner where if that blow is unsuccesful, you can launch the next one. If fight ending blows were so easy to attain, I hardly think either of these arts would be interesting spectator sports--they would be over in seconds. So one question I have is...why does a MT match often take so long to acheive a knock out (if it indeed does), whereas RBSD systems show the fight ending in seconds? Which one is more realistic? Is the truth somewhere inbetween?

Basically, all I'm saying is to check the assumptions that go into techniques. If the assumption of your technique is that this one blow will 'finish' your opponent, well, I don't think that's so good. If it's 'this might do this, but if not here's how to flow into something else', then that's good.

Quote:
Seriously though, if a guy is coming at you and he looks hopped up on drugs or something, not much of any martial arts is likely to work, grab the nearest available weapon. Survive first, deal with the law later. Hard drugs should be considered deadly weapons. I've heard of guys who looked completely gone with various things taking multiple gun shots and continuing to fight. Yeah like any unarmed fighting is really going to work.


You are right, in this situation most unarmed fighting won't work. Nonetheless, I think this is the situation you should train for because it increases your 'b.s. threshold'. Train with an eye to beating this guy and suddenly a lot of crap that gets taught goes out the window. I know that sounds a little contradictory, but basically what I'm saying is that the single most important assumption underlying all s.d. training should be that the attacker is well trained and willing to inflict severe violence with no regard to rules, laws etc. and has a very high pain threshold.


Edited by Ames (09/28/10 02:45 PM)
_________________________
"Seek not to follow in the footsteps of the men of old; seek what they sought."
--Basho

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#430374 - 10/08/10 06:27 PM Re: effectiveness on men versus women [Re: Ames]
Stormdragon Offline
Who Dares Wins
Professional Poster

Registered: 08/05/04
Posts: 3409
Loc: Salem, OR
Well, at least they chain attacks after something like a groin strike unlike some arts that have the godhand mindset of one punch one kill.

I don't advocate spending too much time learning to chain attacks based entirely on specific reactions (like bending over from a groin strike) but if you're practicing to flow into more attacks before stopping than that's not terrible. If you give someone a good hard kick in the crotch it WILL get some kind of reaction,l now they may well still be able to fight and if they actually are on something then it probably will do nothing, but a normal guy off the street is going to feel it enough to open up something else. Just like if you give someone a good shin kick in the thigh. Sure it may not end the fight but it will give you an opening somewhere else.

The difference with muay thai, is we don't really care all that much how you react from a particular attack, because the next thing we throw will hit SOMETHING and it will hurt. Actually, from what I've seen of Krav Maga, continuing attacks and motion is a big thing which I like. That concept has worked well for me when sparring with good fighters.
_________________________
Member of DaJoGen MMA school under Dave Hagen and Team Chaos fight team under Denver Mangiyatan and Chris Toquero, ran out of Zanshin Martial Arts in Salem Oregon: http://www.zanshinarts.org/Home.aspx,

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