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#420073 - 06/12/09 12:29 AM Re: The "Classical Mess" [Re: ShikataGaNai]
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
Quote:

So, do I have it straight - OJKD are all those people who train to move and execute techniques done by Lee, and look as MUCH LIKE HIM as possible while doing it, and JKDC people are like Vunak or Inosanto and are always looking for ways to push the philosophy in new directions?






That would be correct.

By the way, does anyone know the reason why Lee wanted to close down all of his schools to begin with?

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#420074 - 06/12/09 01:58 AM Re: The "Classical Mess" [Re: JKogas]
ShikataGaNai Offline
Veteran

Registered: 08/27/05
Posts: 1163
Loc: Bellingham, WA
To get to the other side?

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#420075 - 06/12/09 10:33 AM Re: The "Classical Mess" [Re: ShikataGaNai]
JKogas Offline
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Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
You know, one of the primary reasons he closed them down was because he essentially saw that people were trying to become carbon copies of HIM. Yet here was a man telling everyone, "your truth is not MY truth".

People are basically just clueless morons about this. The truth stares them in the face. But when martial arts becomes a theoretical process and is taken away from the "what is", you end up with garbage like this and people trying to make JKD into a "museum piece".

The reality of JKD is hidden in plain view. Lee didn't like "fixed forms" and spoke about it all the time. Yet we now have a group trying to trying to make JKD just that.

It right in front of them:


Quote:

"Using no way as way, having no limitation as limitation".





But, the Foundation is solidifying it into "ONE" way and thus also a "fixed" limitation. This flies in the face of what JKD essentially IS; alive, simple, direct and in particular, 'non-classical'.

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#420076 - 06/12/09 01:57 PM Re: The "Classical Mess" [Re: JKogas]
Ames Offline
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Registered: 05/29/05
Posts: 1117
Quote:

But, the Foundation is solidifying it into "ONE" way and thus also a "fixed" limitation. This flies in the face of what JKD essentially IS; alive, simple, direct and in particular, 'non-classical'.





I agree. It's actually interesting (but sad) to see it happen.

But, to be balanced, lately some (by no means all) of the JKDC camp appears to be doing the same thing (to a lesser extent). The silat is an example with the djurus, and some places have a real lack of pressure testing. Again, by no means all as JKDC covers a really a pretty broad spectrum.

I'm not make a veiled reference to Dan Inosanto here. He seems to be doing his own thing. More I'm talking about his 'followers/devotees' (as different from his students). It makes me wonder what will happen once Inosanto passes, will these folks starting making static 'Inosanto Martial Arts'?

This all makes me wonder why it seems that so many, from both sides, are interested in turning it into a fixed form? Is it human nature?

--Chris
_________________________
"Seek not to follow in the footsteps of the men of old; seek what they sought."
--Basho

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#420077 - 06/12/09 11:32 PM Re: The "Classical Mess" [Re: Ames]
JKogas Offline
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Registered: 01/25/03
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Loc: North Carolina
No Chris, I would agree with you that the JKDC crowd have largely missed the boat as well. The one thing that THEY seemed to have forgotten about was the concept of simplicity and daily decrease. Instead, they have taken the "buffet" approach (take a little of this, a little of that, some that over there, etc). That also flies in the face of quintessential jkd.

Regarding Inosanto's passing: I think it will be much like it is now; a small core of people who actually get it and a thundering herd of those who don't.

Is it human nature to turn things into fixed forms? I think so. Lee thought so as well saying:

Quote:

In the long history of martial arts, the instinct to follow and imitate seems to be inherent in most martial artists, instructors and students alike. This is partly due to human tendency and partly because of the steep traditions behind multiple patterns of styles. Consequently, to find a refreshing, original, master teacher is a rarity. The need for a "pointer of the way" echoes.




Also:

Quote:

When you get down to it, real combat is not fixed and is very much "alive." The fancy mess (a form of paralysis) solidifies and conditions what was once fluid, and when you look at it realistically, it is nothing but a blind devotion to the systematic uselessness of practicing routines or stunts that lead to nowhere.





Essentially, Lee felt that people had more confidence and faith in "systems" and styles than in themselves, thus the tendency to clinch to fixed forms, etc. I have experienced this myself with people who came to me wanting to learn Vunak's "RAT" system. It's really interesting.

Now I'm not saying it isn't worth learning the RAT or anything else, but just to do so and leave it at that is to cling to a very rigid form.

I have taught guys that and then led them into boxing - which they did begrudgingly. Though they were terrified by the thought of being hit (yet they want to be fighters).

They wanted a system that would essentially 'save them', instead of developing "alive" skill that would enable them to 'save themselves'...if that makes any sense. This very notion is at the heart of all "fixed" styles (particularly regarding OJKD here).

Why fix JKD to a rigid form (of only what Lee was doing at specific times) and yet by this very act, eradicate from JKD, Lee's very pioneering spirit?! It makes no sense.

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#420078 - 06/13/09 01:12 AM Re: The "Classical Mess" [Re: JKogas]
ShikataGaNai Offline
Veteran

Registered: 08/27/05
Posts: 1163
Loc: Bellingham, WA
Seems like the best way to understand JKD is to avoid JKD schools. IMO at least.

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#420079 - 06/13/09 01:21 AM Re: The "Classical Mess" [Re: ShikataGaNai]
Ames Offline
Veteran

Registered: 05/29/05
Posts: 1117
I wouldn't say that, no. John has summed it up pretty well here:

Quote:

They wanted a system that would essentially 'save them', instead of developing "alive" skill that would enable them to 'save themselves'..




I think what John is saying is it's more about finding a school that guides you toward the skills to express yourself combativly, rather than falling back on fixed forms, or enforcing a constant imitation of someone else.

--Chris
_________________________
"Seek not to follow in the footsteps of the men of old; seek what they sought."
--Basho

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#420080 - 06/13/09 11:01 AM Re: The "Classical Mess" [Re: Ames]
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
Exactly! JKD was initially supposed to guide one toward free and alive forms of self-expression, with general guidelines which were put in place to keep practitioners from becoming rigid, or, limited. Obviously that isn't what has happened with regard to OJKD.

A few dim-witted Bruce Lee "groupies" got a hold of it and decided that it wasn't about self-expression at all.

They wanted JKD to be about how you expressed Bruce Lee's expression. Thus in the process of deciding this, they turned it into just another "style".

IMO, this is really no different than any other truth. Looking back over the history of humanity, we see examples of where early creative thinkers (Buddha, Jesus and others) discovered certain truths that were then often corrupted, distorted and misinterpreted by the masses. Only a small minority seemed to truly grasp the essential message. JKD is really no different in that regard.

Well, Buddha wasn't Buddhist and Christ wasn't a Christian. They had merely discovered the truth and tried to tell others and "point the way". Lee said that, he was only a "finger pointing to the moon".

Which means, look to the MOON and not the frickin FINGER! Amazing how such simplicity can be lost on those so desperate for external forms of salvation (in this case, relying on a fixed "style" instead of individual self-expression). What is glaringly obvious is that Lee’s OJKD followers have merely focused on the finger.

Such is life.



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#420535 - 06/30/09 05:03 PM Re: The "Classical Mess" [Re: JKogas]
Chen Zen Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/09/03
Posts: 7043
Loc: Ms
OJKD is gone, IMO. Personally I feel it should be abandoned, as its contradictory not only to the founder but to the art itself.
_________________________
"When I let Go of who I am, I become who I might be."
Lao Tzu

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#420542 - 06/30/09 08:42 PM Re: The "Classical Mess" [Re: Chen Zen]
MattJ Offline
Free Rhinoplasty!
Prolific

Registered: 11/25/04
Posts: 15634
Loc: York PA. USA
Quote:
They wanted a system that would essentially 'save them', instead of developing "alive" skill that would enable them to 'save themselves'...if that makes any sense. This very notion is at the heart of all "fixed" styles (particularly regarding OJKD here).


Excellent point, John! It boggles the mind to think that people expect a system or style to do the work for them! But this is a common misperception of martial arts training in general. "I train, so I can kick ass!"

Unfortunately, that is only true if you are actually training by kicking people's asses. LOL.
_________________________
"In case you ever wondered what it's like to be knocked out, it's like waking up from a nightmare only to discover it wasn't a dream." -Forrest Griffin

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