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#429821 - 09/08/10 08:24 PM Re: conspiracy-nut [Re: bcihak]
bcihak Offline
Member

Registered: 08/12/07
Posts: 298
Loc: Illinois
The author of "the politically incorrect guide to islam and the crusades," is Robert Spencer, I think he also has the website jihadwatch.com. He is a great guest and is very knowledgable about the islamic extremist movement. Another guy to check out on national security issues is Victor Davis Hanson. He is a pretty good author of millitary history.

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#429822 - 09/08/10 10:04 PM Re: conspiracy-nut [Re: bcihak]
Stormdragon Offline
Who Dares Wins
Professional Poster

Registered: 08/05/04
Posts: 3409
Loc: Salem, OR
Constitutional right? Yes. Stupid and wrong? Oh yeah, for numerous reasons. It's also a very unChristian thing to do. You don't win converts that way. That guy, when it comes to this stuff, has no clue what he's doing. It's wrong on so many levels.

And I am totally on board with the Army for confiscating those Bibles. We're soldiers not missionaries. You want to convert those people, take Bibles and go there yourself, it's not our job or our problem. Or even a good thing. The Army burning the Bibles? I DO NOT believe that. We did not have regulations against having Bibles, just against using them to try and convert the people in those countries. the Army very much respects all religion practiced by soldiers, and gives out Bibles, Torah's, even Qur'ans to soldiers, but if you try to use that to be a missionary than yes the Army will come down on you hard, for good reason.
My experience? 10 months with the U.S. Army in Operation Iraqi Freedom 2009-2010. What's that pastors experience? Or the credentials of the guy who wrote that Qur'an version you cited? The worst thing is for us would be to be seen as Crusaders. Trust me, that is inviting more trouble than 9/11.
_________________________
Member of DaJoGen MMA school under Dave Hagen and Team Chaos fight team under Denver Mangiyatan and Chris Toquero, ran out of Zanshin Martial Arts in Salem Oregon: http://www.zanshinarts.org/Home.aspx,

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#429823 - 09/08/10 10:09 PM Re: conspiracy-nut [Re: Stormdragon]
Stormdragon Offline
Who Dares Wins
Professional Poster

Registered: 08/05/04
Posts: 3409
Loc: Salem, OR
And the Taliban/Al Qaeda are NOT representative of Muslims in general or Islam.
Yes Muslims who fully follow the Qur'an do not fit well in modern American and would be seen by most as a little crazy and lawless. That does not make them terrorists. Muslims who're particularly liberal or progressive turn a blind eye to quite a few passages of the Qur'an. Which is fine by me. The Islam of the Taliban are a perversion of Islam in the opposite extreme. We are NOT fighting Muslims.
I may not trust them (the Qur'an says not to be close friends with unbelievers) but that doesn't mean they're terrorists or bad people necessarily and needlessly antagonizing them is pointless and childish.
_________________________
Member of DaJoGen MMA school under Dave Hagen and Team Chaos fight team under Denver Mangiyatan and Chris Toquero, ran out of Zanshin Martial Arts in Salem Oregon: http://www.zanshinarts.org/Home.aspx,

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#429824 - 09/08/10 11:36 PM Re: conspiracy-nut [Re: Stormdragon]
bcihak Offline
Member

Registered: 08/12/07
Posts: 298
Loc: Illinois
The bible burning story is at CNN website. They were confiscated at the Bagram Air base and then burned. Good night.

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#429825 - 09/08/10 11:52 PM Re: conspiracy-nut [Re: bcihak]
Kimo2007 Offline
Veteran

Registered: 03/31/07
Posts: 1057
Quote:
I think that the guy burning the Qur'an has a constitutional right to burn those books. I do not think that he should, much like I do not think they should build the mosque in New York.


OK since we can live with each other, lets touch on this. I think from what you've stated that you agree that both groups have the legal right to do both things, burn and build. You do not think they should do either.

I take issue with you calling the community center a Mosque. Because that would be like calling a YMCA a Cathedral. It's inflammatory on purpose, designed to attach action of one group to another so it can push forward a racist agenda.

That's why it's so important, if you believe in the American Ideal, that the community center be built. It's not an invasion, you would be pushing these American Citizens out of their neighborhood, and why? Because they look like someone else. Not because of their behavior, not because of their beliefs but because a group of people who come from a foreign land, who don't respect our laws, or our way of life co opted a book and twisted it in way that gave them the idea that was OK to murder innocent people. To ask these people to now move their community center, out of their community, where they have lived as American Citizens for 30 plus years is at best intellectually lazy, and at worst pure racism.

In between, I can see where there is some sense of concern for those who lost loved ones on 9-11. They are not racist and their immediate visceral reaction is understandable, and should be recognized and addressed. But their anger, is misplaced. It's insensitive, in fact cruel to hold innocent people accountable for the actions of terrorist, when they were in no way involved or supportive of them.

To ask them to move, not build or go away in any form is to say the perceived slight of one group somehow trumps the innocence of another. And if that is not the basis of racism, nothing is.
_________________________
Undefeated in all of Asia!

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#429826 - 09/09/10 12:09 AM Re: conspiracy-nut [Re: bcihak]
Kimo2007 Offline
Veteran

Registered: 03/31/07
Posts: 1057
Quote:
The bible burning story is at CNN website. They were confiscated at the Bagram Air base and then burned. Good night.


I just read the story. The Bibles were burned because they were printed and sent in local languages by a private organization but made somehow to appear to be from US Military Sponsored sources.

They were burned because if they got out to the highly fanatical religious Afghanistan community it might appear the US Military was fighting a religious war to spread Christianity.

SO, Mr. I say Good Night and think I've made a point, as usual there is more to the story. Not only did we need to get the Bibles out of there, but I imagine the Military had to make a spectacle of the matter to show they were not behind the distribution in the first place.

I hope this bothers you, since the type of war our boys and girls are fighting involves winning hearts and minds, and this type of stunt not only undermines that effort in the name of someone's version of mythology, but more importantly means the loss in trust will result in an extra son, husband, daughter mom or dad will not coming home.

Good Night.
_________________________
Undefeated in all of Asia!

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#429827 - 09/09/10 12:22 AM Re: conspiracy-nut [Re: Kimo2007]
Stormdragon Offline
Who Dares Wins
Professional Poster

Registered: 08/05/04
Posts: 3409
Loc: Salem, OR
lol Kimo I didn't know Islam was a race. Always with the race card. What a joke. I love it, everytime liberals hear something they don't like, no matter how justifiable "oh no racist!". I like a lot of what you say but please don't jump on the racist bandwagon. It's like cops who arrest black people. "U arrest me cuz i black!"
"No I arrested you because you broke the law."

This would be like Catholics getting arrested by an asian cop and saying "you're racist!". So funny it's hysterical. I swear people pull the race card on literally EVERYTHING. To the point that it has lost meaning. Are you telling me it was all whites of the right not wanting the Mosque? Show me evidence of that one.

It has zip to do with race man, it's an issue of cultural respect. We respect their cultural by allowing dozens of mosques to be built there and public worship/expression of Islam, they can respect us by not building a Mosque/community center where most people there don't want it. If they want to have a section with a Mosque, a section with a Church and one with a Synogogue (sp?) THAT would be a sign of peace and very acceptable imo.

And you're blatantly wrong, it's NOT just a community center, it's a Mosque with a section that is a gym and Rec. center. Do you really want to say there is no Mosque involved? Because that would be straight up lying my friend. Don't make me lay down suppressive fire with quotes and sources. lol

Totally agree on the military and Bibles thing.
_________________________
Member of DaJoGen MMA school under Dave Hagen and Team Chaos fight team under Denver Mangiyatan and Chris Toquero, ran out of Zanshin Martial Arts in Salem Oregon: http://www.zanshinarts.org/Home.aspx,

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#429828 - 09/09/10 12:26 AM Re: conspiracy-nut [Re: Stormdragon]
Stormdragon Offline
Who Dares Wins
Professional Poster

Registered: 08/05/04
Posts: 3409
Loc: Salem, OR
Meh here you go anyway.

http://www.boston.com/bostonglobe/editor...at_ground_zero/

http://english.aljazeera.net/news/americas/2010/08/20108323348309300.html

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2010/07/20/eveningnews/main6696724.shtml

Pretty sure it's at least partly a Mosque. Nobody (literally nobody) supports what you're saying the nature of this structure.


Edited by Stormdragon (09/09/10 12:29 AM)
_________________________
Member of DaJoGen MMA school under Dave Hagen and Team Chaos fight team under Denver Mangiyatan and Chris Toquero, ran out of Zanshin Martial Arts in Salem Oregon: http://www.zanshinarts.org/Home.aspx,

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#429829 - 09/09/10 01:24 AM Re: conspiracy-nut [Re: Stormdragon]
Kimo2007 Offline
Veteran

Registered: 03/31/07
Posts: 1057
Quote:
Pretty sure it's at least partly a Mosque. Nobody (literally nobody) supports what you're saying the nature of this structure.


No and no.

First of all, there is a room for Islamic Prayer in the Pentagon, no one not a soul would call the Pentagon a Mosque. Nor would they call it Church or anything else.

The word Mosque is meant to define a Church or Cathedral in our American Vernacular. You know that, I know that, everyone who reports on this issue knows that, and they also know that is not what is being nor has it ever be proposed.

What is being proposed is an Islamic Cultural Center, that has facilities which included prayer or service rooms. Like a Church, or a Y or a Chapel, but with other facilities as well.

So, to say it's a Mosque is misleading On purpose and we both know thats the truth.

It's also not at ground zero. It's 2 blocks from t The World Trade Center Campus, and 5 blocks from the location of the North Tower's closest point. If you are familiar with NYC at all, you would know that is fairly far away in city terms from ground zero. It's not in the shadow, it's not visible, it's not in the same neighborhood. It's close, sure but if you were at ground zero you'd have to walk a fair distance, and know where you were going to even find it. It most certainly is not at ground zero.

So, the "Mosque at ground zero" is completely a BS statement.

Further, of all people, the Muslim community has been the one ( excluding the right) who has said, maybe for the sake of getting along with the west maybe this project is not a good idea. I applaud their sentiment, but disagree with rewarding the xenophobic behaviors that would push these people out of their neighborhood.

Again, they didn't come in from the outside, they have been there for 30 years. While your point about Islam not being a race is valid, it doesn't change the facts. Just because others have overplayed the raced card, doesn't mean racism doesn't exist, and it doesn't mean that this issue isn't about racism. The details are different, but the motivation and philosophy holds. The problem is not who they are but who some people think they are, the rest is just semantics.
_________________________
Undefeated in all of Asia!

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#429836 - 09/09/10 08:28 AM Re: conspiracy-nut [Re: Kimo2007]
Stormdragon Offline
Who Dares Wins
Professional Poster

Registered: 08/05/04
Posts: 3409
Loc: Salem, OR
In my experience a "prayer room" is a worship center i.e. Church, which for Muslims is a...yep you guessed it a MOSQUE!

And no I'm not even going to pretend I'm familiar with NYC, never been there.
And I never said racism didn't exist (which you can gather yourself if you read my earlier posts), it absolutely does but huge progress has been made in the west in that area (which we're almost never given credit for, it's no wonder there's been a bit of a resurgence lately-don't give credit where it's due and people stop bothering) and it's thrown about randomly these days on nearly everything when overly liberal, touchy-feely people hear things they don't like.

What you're talking about is prejudice, not racism. And it seems to me that what you're saying is that if a person doesn't consider all cultural values and world-views equally good than they are prejudice or racist. You know what, if that makes me those things fine, whatever, I don't care, I have no problems with Muslims being in America and openly worshipping their god, but no law says we have to allow them to put up structures supporting their world-view wherever they want. Islam is not synonymous with terrorism or the views of the Taliban, however the teachings of the Qur'an, whether radical or not, are not in line with traditional American (or western actually) philosophy in terms of government and law (i.e. separation of Church and state, basic punishments for crimes, place of evidence, religious freedom, democracy, etc etc-this comes from my reading of their book and from what I've seen in Muslim countries I am NOT saying there is nothing beautiful or respectable about Islam-there is).

To put ANY religious institution so close to a place that represents America should not be forced. And personally I'm not on board with the idea. Now if they want to put a place that ties all religions together, fine, despite my atheism that's a possible aid in peace so ok, but a Muslim cultural center? Why Muslim only? That benefits no one but Muslims. Why not something that ties us together? How many Muslims actually seek out other religious leaders for talks on various issues, like, say, the Catholic Church maybe they do, idk, not that I can tell though).
I would have an issue if they put up a Baptist Church that close to ground zero.

Trust me, I'm the last person who is in favor of throwing out Muslims or messing with them in America, hell I think we need to train Muslim Chaplains here in the states under strong, moderate, devote Muslim Imams and send them back to Afghanistan and Iraq. I think we should build bigger Mosques or rebuild broken down Mosques in those places, that is the way to show we are not the enemy, but come on, lets respect our own people's wishes as well. As far as I'm concerned, what it comes down to is what the majority wants. This is a democracy afterall. No law is broken by blocking this thing from being made.
_________________________
Member of DaJoGen MMA school under Dave Hagen and Team Chaos fight team under Denver Mangiyatan and Chris Toquero, ran out of Zanshin Martial Arts in Salem Oregon: http://www.zanshinarts.org/Home.aspx,

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