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#429642 - 09/04/10 01:56 AM Low kick pivot
Stormdragon Offline
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Do you guys pivot on the heel or toe?
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#429648 - 09/04/10 10:44 AM Re: Low kick pivot [Re: Stormdragon]
MattJ Offline
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Ball of the foot for me.
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#429651 - 09/04/10 12:08 PM Re: Low kick pivot [Re: MattJ]
Kimo2007 Offline
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Ditto
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#429662 - 09/04/10 10:17 PM Re: Low kick pivot [Re: Kimo2007]
Stormdragon Offline
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Seems liek that's the msot common. That's what my mma instructor prefers but I use the heel. More stab;e and powerful I think. You just telegraph a bit, so I spend a lot of time working set ups. I always at least shoot a cross and follow with the kick so they aren't watching me as I pivot. Bad Rutten makes it work so I figure if it's godo enough for him it's good enough form me. lol
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#429714 - 09/06/10 06:44 AM Re: Low kick pivot [Re: Stormdragon]
matt_mcg Offline
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Pivoting on the heel doesn't make sense to me, I'm afraid.

Assuming you are moving on the balls of your feet 'boxing' style [which most people do, for mobility, speed, etc] then pivoting on the heel is a much slower and, as you say, telegraphed movement than rotating on the ball of the foot. It also seems like you'd be less rather than more stable if you've lifted the toes and ball of the feet off of the ground since that's normally how we maintain balance [flexing the forefoot, etc]. The heel, in contrast to the forefoot/ball-of-the-foot has no spring, no shock-absorption, no ability to control movement and change direction.

I'm not doubting that you can make it work for you, but it does seem [to me at least] counter-intuitive. It doesn't seem to offer any advantage at all over kicking via a pivot on the ball of the foot, and lots of disadvantages.

Try it, as an experiment, raise your toes off of the ground as if pivoting on the heel and ask someone to push you, and then try the same while on the balls of your feet. Which one lets you recover balance more effectively? And control the movement of the push?

Matt

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#429724 - 09/06/10 09:08 AM Re: Low kick pivot [Re: matt_mcg]
Stormdragon Offline
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I've tried kicking with the pivot on my toes and, at least for the thai kick, it doesn't work out so well. That telegraphing you mentioend is a problem that I solve by punching or checking for a second with the hand on the kicking side. That generally distracts them enough to get the kick, and can even cause some pain.

This is what I mean: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s5iTWCwlZyM
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#429741 - 09/06/10 12:35 PM Re: Low kick pivot [Re: Stormdragon]
matt_mcg Offline
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I'd worry that the immobility is going to lead to regrets soon or later. You can't really rely on that sort of distracting move, or broken time. Advanced kickers are going to be used to it, I'd expect. If you are on your heel and someone lifts their leg over your low kick and front kicks you -- which'd be a standard savate type reply to a low kick -- for example, you'd struggle to recover, I'd have thought?

I might be wrong, of course, but I can see lots of ways in which a problem might arise.

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#429742 - 09/06/10 12:40 PM Re: Low kick pivot [Re: matt_mcg]
matt_mcg Offline
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Incidentally, Rutten pivots on the ball of his foot a lot in that vid. He plants the foot with the step and then rotates on the ball.
Look at the kick on 3min and again at 3:10/3:11. Same again at 3:30/3:35-ish.

[Can't listen to the audio on this computer, so I am going by visuals only]

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#429769 - 09/06/10 10:43 PM Re: Low kick pivot [Re: matt_mcg]
Stormdragon Offline
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Ok well I guess I don't pivot on my heel entirely then because as far as it looks to me (I just did a few to check closely) it's almost exactly the same as he does it except my upper body moves just a tad differently. He says in the vid though "some teachers say pivot on the ball of your foot...don't do it, trust me you'll have more power pivoting on your heel."

Your points o nthe vulnerabilities of that method are definitely valid, I'm sure more sparring will either show me that it's nto a good method or betetr yet I'll find ways to nullify those counters. I've only been kicking with that style (the thai way as opposed to Karate or TKD kicking) for a short time.
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#429846 - 09/09/10 01:50 PM Re: Low kick pivot [Re: Stormdragon]
matxtx Offline
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Id say the ball of the foot and for safety reasons amongst other things. The foot has to be free to be dynamic and using the heel will put a break on the foot but the knee might keep going and its going to damage them over time. I heard not long ago Bas Rutten found it hard getting to the end of his drive because of injuries. It probably from all sorts of things.
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#429856 - 09/09/10 05:01 PM Re: Low kick pivot [Re: matxtx]
Stormdragon Offline
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Yeah it does take a lot of extra practice to make that motion smooth and fast.
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#429870 - 09/10/10 06:52 AM Re: Low kick pivot [Re: Stormdragon]
matt_mcg Offline
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I still don't understand _why_?!

If it's going to take extra practice and if there are quite good reasons why it might not be an idea way to kick, why work at it so hard? Rather than just go with all the accumulated wisdom of the thousands and thousands of kickers in dozens of different styles who pivot from the ball of the foot on kicks that have that sort of trajectory?

I'm genuinely curious because, so far, the only reason seems to be 'power', is that right? I feel like I'm maybe missing something.

Cheers,

Matt

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#429872 - 09/10/10 10:05 AM Re: Low kick pivot [Re: matt_mcg]
matt_mcg Offline
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Reading the previous comment it's not meant to sound confrontational, btw smile I'm just a bit mystified.

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#429875 - 09/10/10 12:33 PM Re: Low kick pivot [Re: matt_mcg]
Stormdragon Offline
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Because it doesn't work for me, I have a way harder time pivoting that way. IT feels awkward and unbalanced.
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#430054 - 09/20/10 01:07 PM Re: Low kick pivot [Re: Stormdragon]
Ames Offline
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I'm with in the feeling-awkward department. That being said however, I have been training with the ball of the foot for that last couple years for safety reasons.

As the other poster said, pivot on the heel during kicking puts too much pressure on the knee, and over time will likely lead to injury. There was an article in JAMA on this a few years back, where a large study was conducted, and it was shown that the torque is too great over time and will eventually damage the knee.



FWIW,
Chris
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#430187 - 09/27/10 07:12 PM Re: Low kick pivot [Re: Ames]
Stormdragon Offline
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So I've been trying to use the method you guys are telling me is best and I've actually gotten to the place where it doesn't feel totally wrong. I still like the other way but I can see the value in this short pivot on the toes. I might just use that for some situations, it's definitely faster. A little less powerful but that doesn't always matter. My instructor showed me that it can still hurt plenty.
When you guys land the thai round kick do you bring the arm of the kicking side down behind the leg as a coutner balance and to generate more power like I do and I see most people doing? I bring the opposite hand up for soem proection but that kciking side arm gets thrown back to get that extra power. One instructor says that's fine, another says don't. I really don't like keeping my hands in guard and only maybe moving my elbow back a little on that kick.
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#430202 - 09/28/10 11:50 AM Re: Low kick pivot [Re: Stormdragon]
matt_mcg Offline
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I train in savate rather than muay thai, so when I do a round style kick it's done slightly differently. The kick is chambered rather than swung through and, typically, in sport savate the standard thing to do would be to keep both hands in the guard because savate fighters are tricksy, and like to flick counter-kicks up towards your face when evading, for example. In historical savate the rear arm was swung back, but in modern sport-orientated practice it wouldn't be. Dropping your rear arm will result in getting kicked in the face. Savate round kicks can be less committed and powerful than thai kicks, though [but you are wearing shoes with hard toe caps so you don't need as much pure power].

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#430207 - 09/28/10 01:32 PM Re: Low kick pivot [Re: Stormdragon]
JMWcorwin Offline
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A - Bas is pivoting on the ball of his foot, not the heel. When you pivot on the ball of your foot, the heel moves forward while the ball of the foot stays planted, by definition. If you were pivoting on the heel, it would stay still and the front of the foot would roll to the back. The telegraphing he does is in stepping while he pivots instead of just doing the pivot. This can be done w/o taking that step. I think you're misreading or misunderstanding the statement. But, watch his feet at the moment he kicks, and you will see his heel is off the ground and he's connecting to the ground with the ball of his foot. The heel touches first on the step, but the pivoting is actually done on the ball of the foot. Watch the planted foot during the last half of the kick, after the kicking leg is already off the ground:

eg:at 1:18, pause & look at his planted foot - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4YpCcJ2SnDs&feature=related
heel off the ground, pivoting on the ball

B - We pivot on the ball of the foot because that's where the center of gravity is, in the center of the foot just behind ball of the foot. Straight physics and kinesiology. If you plant your heel and spin on it, you will be off balance and tend to fall back at the end. Here's a test: stand in form, and lift your toes off the groud so your standing on your heels only. You will fall backwards. Now do the same thing standing on the balls of your feet...much easier.

C - If you throw that hand down behind your leg and get swept or thrown..you run the risk of hitting the ground with your hand there, in between your body and the ground. This can result in a dislocated shoulder. (not a theory, I've seen it happen) And the obvious, you leave that side momentarily open for a counter strike.
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#430208 - 09/28/10 01:38 PM Re: Low kick pivot [Re: JMWcorwin]
JMWcorwin Offline
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<<------ see this foot?

like this
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#430211 - 09/28/10 02:36 PM Re: Low kick pivot [Re: JMWcorwin]
MattJ Offline
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Stormy -

The harder I throw my roundhouses, the more arm swing I get. Swinging the arm seems to improve the power, but at an obvious sacrifice in face protection. There is a compromise either way with arm up (guard) or arm down (power).
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#430213 - 09/28/10 02:50 PM Re: Low kick pivot [Re: matt_mcg]
Ames Offline
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You know, it's a damn shame that venues like K1 don't allow savateurs to wear shoes...
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#430214 - 09/28/10 03:18 PM Re: Low kick pivot [Re: Ames]
matxtx Offline
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The thing with the arm going behind is that the shoulder should still stay high to protect the chin and arm doesnt have to go all the way behind,just as long as there is coupling effect and rapid use of the arms and upper body. Also the other arms shoulder is up and the arm is helping to cover the face by being in a position similar to a traditional high block out of TKD or karate,yet tighter ,not just staying still in its original gaurd position. Both arms are used for momentum using a coupling effect. Thats how I have been taught.

Saying all that another Thai instructor has taught me to keep a gaurd one side and have the arm on the kicking leg side out in front like I am putting my hand in their face. I do both depending who I train with and whats going on.

The key is the shoulder protects the chin.PROTECT THE CHIN. The chin getting hit will more likely cause a knockout. A straight strike to other areas of the face will hurt and damage yet you will still be conscious and stand more of a chance.


Edited by matxtx (09/28/10 03:19 PM)
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#430218 - 09/29/10 12:29 AM Re: Low kick pivot [Re: matxtx]
Stormdragon Offline
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Ok I think I misunderstood him, I think I just was throwing that arm a bit too far and not getting it back fast enough. I understand about using the shoulders to guard the chin.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4YpCcJ2SnDs&feature=related

Yeah I definitely don't bring my heel off the ground like that and I don't plan on it. I don't know how you can do that and keep your balance. After slowing down my kick, I have found that I have pretty much even weight distribution on the pivoting foot. Even when I pivot more on the ball like my instructor teaches it's still pretty even. Just doesn't feel right going all the way on the ball like that.
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#430229 - 09/30/10 10:46 AM Re: Low kick pivot [Re: Stormdragon]
Kimo2007 Offline
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Quote:
he more arm swing I get. Swinging the arm seems to improve the power


Matt said the above quote and from Storms video I take issue with a couple of things.

And my coaches teach the step first concept too, so opinions vary here but, I am a firm believer in move first from the striking weapon. Launch your kick and adjust your body as you move, or set up the kick via foot work to mask your intentions. But to train to step first then kick, too me is training to telegraph horribly.

I spar guys all the time and I see them coming a mile away when they step like that, I move about as fast as the Pyramids so maybe out of survival I've learn to be more perceptive because I have too, power is useless if you can't hit anyone with it and I think you need to be able to launch the kick directly from where you are. The power comes from the hips anyway, train to get tight fast hip rotation and let the leg go along for the ride. You'll be faster and more powerful than any step will ever make you. IMO.

Arms...OY! You, grasshopper, are not Chubby Checker, this is not American Bandstand, and you are not doing the twist.

The Irish have proven, you do not need your arms to dance! Nor do you need them to kick! While it may feel natural, and by swinging them one way, it seems you can get a harder hip twist the other, it's perceived benefit comes as great cost.

Instead of swinging your arms, trying just pinching your elbows into your body while keeping your hands in guard. I think you'll find with a little practice you will feel more like a fighter and less like a Rockett.

OK in fairness, laws of physics and opposite reaction would say by swinging your arms out, or reaching as shown in the video, you can extend and generate more hip rotation and in theory more power...I am mostly being funny because I was coached up by a guy who thought he was Don Rickles half the time. But that IMO is sort of basic and in fight application you have to look at the bigger picture and realize that guard and hand position outweighs any slight benefit of reaching for added torque when you can get almost the same torque and power with good overall technique, and, that there are many more factors in power as well.

Another good point in that video was angle of incidence. Cung Le is a guy who is/was (not sure if he is still fighting) great at landing kicks almost like jabs, but terrible at turning his hips, thus leaving a lot of power off the table. I found it surprising that such a technical guy seemed so lacking in such a basic fundamental, but I guess it goes to show you how fragmented MA training was before the mid 90's.

Sorry, Matt...I'm sure you're an excellent dancer.
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#430232 - 09/30/10 12:13 PM Re: Low kick pivot [Re: Kimo2007]
MattJ Offline
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Kimo -

Quote:
And my coaches teach the step first concept too, so opinions vary here but, I am a firm believer in move first from the striking weapon. Launch your kick and adjust your body as you move, or set up the kick via foot work to mask your intentions.


Agreed, and this is what I was taught in kenpo from day one.

Quote:
But to train to step first then kick, too me is training to telegraph horribly.


It is a bit of a telegraph, but using proper footwork/hand technique will minimize it. MMA guys (Ex: Dominick Cruz) routinely use hands to set up low kicks very effectively. Stepping in will certainly increase power (think marriage of gravity or launching). People doing this are weighing the cost of the telegraph against the power advantage of stepping in. Not wrong, just a choice.

Quote:
But that IMO is sort of basic and in fight application you have to look at the bigger picture and realize that guard and hand position outweighs any slight benefit of reaching for added torque when you can get almost the same torque and power with good overall technique, and, that there are many more factors in power as well.


Highlighting your opinions to point out your choices, which may not be the same for someone else. Other styles may prize KO above everything else, and train to be able to take shots to get their own. I have worked out with folks like that, and it is a valid strategy. Not wrong, just a choice.

FWIW, I make every effort to keep my guard up when striking, but I have noticed that max-power roundhouse kicks tend to get my arms swinging. I get by often because my opposite arm swings across to cover my face.

And Cung Le has pretty good power, from what I remember. Didn't he break Frank Shamrocks's arm with a RH kick? I seem to remember him kicking Scott Smith around the cage like a soccer ball, too.
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#430244 - 10/01/10 12:29 AM Re: Low kick pivot [Re: MattJ]
Stormdragon Offline
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After another night of kicks, I think I'm going to focus on training my instructors approach but I'm still going to work the Bas Rutten style a fair amount simply because I like how powerful and stable it feels, and I really think you can avoid getting caught if you set it up well with punches. also, that step helps put you off line from an attack. My instructor doesn't really pivot at all hardly which I don't like but I'm trying to get good at kicking hard while not moving that foot or the hand on the kicking side TOO much. I see no reason not to have both options, they both have perks. My instructor did prove today (painfully) that you can really make it land hard without too much motion. I still don't plan on bringing my heel completely off the ground though. I see no benefit to that.

My mma school is proving to be very good. These first few weeks we sparred once (we roll every day though). Right now they are drilling the fundamentals to hell, just the most basic skills over and over and over and over and over ad nauseum. Which is perfect. However, every technique is trained "live" with varying levels of resistance. Usually 30% or so, and then we roll 80-100%. First time we try a technique it's zero resistance then we add just a little. It's good stuff.
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#430245 - 10/01/10 01:05 AM Re: Low kick pivot [Re: MattJ]
Kimo2007 Offline
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Quote:
MMA guys (Ex: Dominick Cruz) routinely use hands to set up low kicks very effectively.


I agree and I would say that using hands to set up a leg kick is great, but different than training to step and kick every time. Personally I think the way you first learn to kick is how you kick. It's a lot easier to add a step in foot work later, than to take it away.

So, my point was more about in isolation as it was being shown in the video, with 2 moves before the kick, you are ingraining habits that would then have to be stripped away later.

I would train just the kick, hands tight, hip and kick... then add the movement, then add the step as a part of the footwork so it flowed. This way when a new fighter goes to kick he can kick from anywhere, not have this 2 beat process then kick.

I would also clarify that while I believe you lead with the striking weapon, that is not absolute either. Sometimes you launch and hold the weapon back to disrupt timing, then throw. But it's by design, not technique if you follow my meaning.

Quote:
Highlighting your opinions to point out your choices, which may not be the same for someone else.


Fair enough, I've never been one to say that one size fits all. You need to put things together in a way that works for you. But power isn't much use if it can't get to the target, or if leaves you so open to counter technique it's only useful against a much lessor, or unlucky opponent.

Quote:
FWIW, I make every effort to keep my guard up when striking, but I have noticed that max-power roundhouse kicks tend to get my arms swinging. I get by often because my opposite arm swings across to cover my face.


Of course, and it's quite feasible to find a happy medium to do both, it just doesn't lend itself nearly as well to my witty contrast between Chubby Checker and Michael Flatterly's Lord of the Dance...

Quote:
And Cung Le has pretty good power,


One of my favorite fighters of a few years ago, and I don't mean he had NO power. But he often landed kicks where he didn't engage his hips and his power was greatly reduced from what it could have been. Just because he won the fights, doesn't mean he couldn't have fought better.
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#430249 - 10/01/10 07:14 AM Re: Low kick pivot [Re: Kimo2007]
Stormdragon Offline
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Even my instructor who advocates very little if any arm swinging still does it enough for me to notice when he does a low kick full speed. I think it's safe to say that it's ok to do, the problem people have is letting it linger a bit too long or throwing it TOO far. Minimize it as much as possible and you're good. I actually angle my head and shoulders down and towards the 5 oclock or so just a bit to avoid those punches.
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#430250 - 10/01/10 08:26 AM Re: Low kick pivot [Re: Stormdragon]
matt_mcg Offline
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In savate, or at least in the classes I've trained in, we work on learning distance so that you can throw kicks with no setup or movement, and with no telegraphing. One of the things I try to eradicate in students is that constant shuffling/hopping thing, and the urge to always step forward to kick. Esp. when people close up their feet together prior to kicking. If you are at the right range, you should be able to just pivot and go without moving the feet at all.

However, stepping can often be useful. You can use sidesteps or diagonal footwork to transition between different kicking angles, or between legs, or to change the range from punching to kicking, to make sure your movement isn't predictably straight back and forth, and so on. So a fairly standard thing would be to step off to the right when kicking with the left leg and throw a toe kick into the 'plex and then step straight back the other way and do a low kick with the right leg to the thigh, for example.

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#430252 - 10/01/10 10:42 AM Re: Low kick pivot [Re: matt_mcg]
Stormdragon Offline
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When I say set up I'm refering to other stuff used as distraction to create an opening. Like throwing a cross followed by a low round kick or something.
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#430257 - 10/01/10 02:04 PM Re: Low kick pivot [Re: Stormdragon]
matxtx Offline
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It all has to be dynamic. The use of the arms is not a slow thing its rapid and in unison or a flow with whatevers going on. Fighters should be always moving somehow so a dynamic rapid movement is not seen as much or as a telagraph.
I have had it explained to me that it is like squeezing the last bit of toothpaste out of a tube with two hands. The top hand twists one way the bottom twist the other. To punch its from the floor upwards and to kick its from the head downwards. The leg is released by the rapid movement of the body.

I like this clip because its a good view to see how the pros do it. Do it how the up to date pro,succesfull fighters are doing it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4_1E5zoMzPM&feature=related
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#430263 - 10/01/10 05:55 PM Re: Low kick pivot [Re: matt_mcg]
Kimo2007 Offline
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Quote:
However, stepping can often be useful. You can use sidesteps or diagonal footwork to transition between different kicking angles, or between legs, or to change the range from punching to kicking, to make sure your movement isn't predictably straight back and forth, and so on. So a fairly standard thing would be to step off to the right when kicking with the left leg and throw a toe kick into the 'plex and then step straight back the other way and do a low kick with the right leg to the thigh, for example.


And I think that is a direct example of marrying the kick to footwork as opposed to demonstrating them isolation.

Let me go on to add that I don't mean to imply there in no movement at all in the arms or other parts of the body, I'm referring to exaggerated or unnecessary movement that is added to the kick, or feels natural when you begin training which is inefficient. The body mechanics dictate a certain amount movement in order to execute kick correctly, just not a full whole sale throwing of the arms which is often see and taught.
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#430264 - 10/01/10 06:05 PM Re: Low kick pivot [Re: matxtx]
Kimo2007 Offline
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Quote:
like this clip because its a good view to see how the pros do it


I see some problems with the clip, even though he is a pro. See the way he throws his hands down to execute his front thrust kick? His round house begins often with the same exact hand movement prior to the kick. A full beat before the kick comes out.

Now, I'm not a pro fighter by any means, and he's quick enough that for me it probably wouldn't matter that I see it because, where am I going to go. But, that said. It's the exact sort of thing I would look for if I was sparring him. Now, maybe in a more fluid environment he would mask it better,but why need to mask it at all? Whatever extra snap he's getting with that setup he's losing by tipping off what's coming. If he's a pro, he's fighting other pros right?

I would guess that kick would see a lot of counters from guys of equal speed and ability. Just my take.
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#430267 - 10/01/10 07:23 PM Re: Low kick pivot [Re: MattJ]
JMWcorwin Offline
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I have to roll with Kimo on this one. The kick should be launhed with the kicknig leg, not by stepping. You push off with your kicking leg, then drive your hips through the target while twisting that front foot, not stepping first. The guys I spar wiht would have a field day with that first step. We are always looking for a kick as an opportunity to throw. And most of us can throw an opponent from a quick, front let kick that wasn't overly telegraphed. Take that step first and you're going to spend a lot of time eating mat. (or asphalt as the case may be) I watched a match where a Thai Boxer was fighting one of our HKD bb's. Because he did that little step before every kick, and he rarely through any other kick than that rounhouse, he had a really long night. He must've hit the canvas 12 to 15 times during a 3 round fight. And most of them were him landing face first. (he didn't know how to fall well and managed to make it harder on himself)

As for the arm, I am stil not convinced that the arm movement itself is generating any huge gains in power. It's simply your body trying to find balance. So, when you leg goes out to the front, it goes out to the back to act as a counter weight. Or it goes behind and forward a bit to offset the backward lean that us stiff guys need to do to make that kick land anywhere above the knees. I think that any power gains are simply falsely percieved because it feels comfortable. (MHO of course) Your balance is more natural so you feel better about the kick which gives you the confidence to throw all out. So, you're throwing the kick harder because you're a tad more comfortable, not from any direct correlation between backward arm movement and force moving forward. It takes more practice to learn to throw it a bit more upright an with guard intact. Any power loss is minimal, and I've seen plenty of people go to sleep from this 'weaker' kick is more than made up for in gains in position and protection. (IMHO again)

I really think that is one of the great myths of modern martial arts. But, there's still enough poeple teaching the concept (and it FEELS right) that it has managed to hang around. At the very least, it inhibits your ability to move through your complete range of forward motion unimpeded. You're limited by how much the hips and body can rotate before the extended arm is dragging behind, defining the end of your range of motion and marking your face as a target while you reset your stance.

So, I agree with you that these things are a bit of a tradeoff and a matter of choice for most. But, I'll stick with keepimg my hands up & my movements disguised. Anyone else, feel free to use whatever techniques you feel comfortable with.
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#430269 - 10/02/10 03:47 AM Re: Low kick pivot [Re: JMWcorwin]
Stormdragon Offline
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Corwin-I can see your point however, and while I agree that moving your arm to counterbalance when you kick is largely about keeping stable, it actually does generate more power, unless you disagree with physicas. Every action has an equal and opposite reaction. If you quick and throw an arm back that force is propelling your body with equal force the other way (with the quick). Try it on a heavy bag, throw your best quicks with and without arm movement and there is a definite difference in power. However it's not necessairly crucial to have that extra power, though I personally like it. Also, you will still hurt someone plenty even without much power, the leg is powerful even if you don't move it much.

Keeping balance is an even more important use for that arm movement imo though. If you can make it work (not doing that arm thing) that's cool too. I was taught in kenpo to not really take either arm out of your guard at all when kicking. I never liked it at all but some people prefer that. I'm suprised this topic hasn't come up before it's pretty funadmental stuff with a lot of conflicting theories.

That guy that got thrown a lot, was he throwing high kicks? I can't see too many people (even BB's) countering say, one of my foot jabs or low round kicks with a throw. Now a mid to high round kick is another story (and why I almost never throw them).

Abouting stepping before kicking, isn't that the hwole idea behind the cut (or switch kick,) kick and why that works?
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#430278 - 10/02/10 01:10 PM Re: Low kick pivot [Re: Kimo2007]
matxtx Offline
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Originally Posted By: Kimo2007
Quote:
like this clip because its a good view to see how the pros do it


I see some problems with the clip, even though he is a pro. See the way he throws his hands down to execute his front thrust kick? His round house begins often with the same exact hand movement prior to the kick. A full beat before the kick comes out.

Now, I'm not a pro fighter by any means, and he's quick enough that for me it probably wouldn't matter that I see it because, where am I going to go. But, that said. It's the exact sort of thing I would look for if I was sparring him. Now, maybe in a more fluid environment he would mask it better,but why need to mask it at all? Whatever extra snap he's getting with that setup he's losing by tipping off what's coming. If he's a pro, he's fighting other pros right?

I would guess that kick would see a lot of counters from guys of equal speed and ability. Just my take.



Respectfully,we know thats not true as this way of kicking is done in top level fights and had been for years

http://www.youtube.com/watch?gl=GB&hl=en-GB&v=WDd-7mFpyas

Whats done in the fight is important not the spar or even in training.

Looking at the fight is different to being there as then its just you looking at the opponent and your seeing it totaly differently. I can sit here and say somethings telegraphed or wrong but facing it with everything else going on all at the same time and its not the same. Theres timing,theres faking,theres hands knees elbows clinching all coming at you,theres constant movement on both sides. Its a different world facing it.
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#430279 - 10/02/10 01:20 PM Re: Low kick pivot [Re: matxtx]
TeK9 Offline
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Whats up Storm,

I've got the entire Bas Rutten Set. I found it odd also how he emphasized pivoting from the heel rather than the ball of the foot. Especially since he himself is a black belt in taekwondo. But watching his other tapes you see that he favors low and wide stances which emphasize power and balance rather than speed. And upon further inspection you see that he is in fact pivoting with the ball of the foot just not holding himself high up there like most other kickers do. He likes to keep his heel dug in for more balance and old school power. Different from thai/tkd fighters who keep high stances when they kick. They really like to stand high on the ball of he supporting foot.

Check out his stance and punching tape. When he first explains why he keeps a square stance. And how he prefers punching with power and doesn't use a jab, but a hard straight punch.
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#430281 - 10/02/10 03:22 PM Re: Low kick pivot [Re: matxtx]
Kimo2007 Offline
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Registered: 03/31/07
Posts: 1057
Quote:
Respectfully,we know thats not true as this way of kicking is done in top level fights and had been for years


Well respectfully I watched the fight and in the first minute I saw kicks, blocked, a take down, a fighter step out of range. All of them had a similar hand movement prior to the kick.

I see it as a stylistic problem. Within the match you see other kicks thrown in exchanges, without the extra hand movement that land more effectively.

I am a fan of Muay Thai, train in 2-3 times a week. So I'm not knocking it, just voicing my opinion about what I see as a flaw in the style VS what I see in other kicking games.
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#430282 - 10/02/10 04:17 PM Re: Low kick pivot [Re: Stormdragon]
Kimo2007 Offline
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Registered: 03/31/07
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Quote:
it actually does generate more power, unless you disagree with physicas. Every action has an equal and opposite reaction.


Storm, I post on this topic every once in awhile because I think it's very important, not often understood or discussed in most schools and can really help dissect why you do something in contrast to how you do something.

Basically with power you have to consider 2 things.

Physics of power generation, which is math and cannot be disputed.

Method of power generation, which is technique (or the how) which is always up for discussion.

On the Physics side of things, Force=Mass x Acceleration.

Which for the kick in discussion is probably the main overlying principle to consider. (there are many others but to keep the post short I'll just speak to this one)

So to your and Corwin's points. He said the power increase is minimal, you said it increases power. But do you know why?

So, first acceleration of the leg is created almost entirely by the hip, I think we all can agree on that. Throwing the arms helps, in a small way to free up the hips so it "feels" easier to throw the leg, as does taking the step, but these are really just technique issues that can be solved with training. A good kicker can achieve similar leg acceleration with little or almost no arm throwing just by using proper footwork and hip rotation.

Where the arms come into play, and you touched on it with opposite reaction, as Corwin did with balance, is Mass. By throwing the arms out when you kick through the target, you are in essence borrowing more mass. Kenpo guys would call it back up mass (though we are using torque to get it).

So, you correct to say that throwing an arm back increases power in a kick. F=MxA. You have increased your M, but, the real question is by how much, and is it enough to warrant what you are giving up for the small amount of extra power you might be able to achieve?

This is where method separates from Physics. Corwin (and it's nice to have someone in my corner) and I both seem to agree that there is plenty of mass and acceleration already available in the kick, and speed of delivery to target, hand position and other factors outweigh and slight power gains you can get with throwing the hands on a kick.

Others of course feel differently, but method can be argued all day, and it's really about what works for you.

Quote:
Abouting stepping before kicking, isn't that the hwole idea behind the cut (or switch kick,) kick and why that works?


I think it's important to remember the difference between a cut, which has a defined timing purpose, and step which does not. The cut works because it's meant to confuse your opponent, they guard the first move (the cut) and then the attack comes. Imagine if the kick had a step before it (after the cut). Would it still work? Probably never. But that is what is being taught and shown in these videos, a kick with 1-2 moves before the attack.

I work mitts with people all the time where we call out combinations and strikes, and I see it happen. Call for a jab, pow. Call for jab-cross, Pow Pow, call for round house, reach, step kick. I'm like no man just kick, like I just saw a pretty girl in the stands, take me out! Reach, step...I'm in row 3 brother...
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#430284 - 10/02/10 05:39 PM Re: Low kick pivot [Re: Kimo2007]
matxtx Offline
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I dont know where your coming from realy. Every top fighter uses the arms in kicking somehow . It might be subtle at times it might not be ,it might be in the flow of a fight or whatver yet its used. Its a fundamental of kicking,and even kneeing in the open or closed position. If you dont agree thats cool yet I have to go with the people who teach me and every top fighter I see and id urge anyone to. Its there to see..watch the top fighters.
Id be genuinly interested to see any top fighter who doesnt.
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#430285 - 10/02/10 05:49 PM Re: Low kick pivot [Re: Kimo2007]
matxtx Offline
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When running if we dont use our arms we go slower. Using the arms helps with acceleration of the legs and that goes for kicking too, using similar fundamentals as running in the kick.
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#430286 - 10/02/10 06:14 PM Re: Low kick pivot [Re: matxtx]
Kimo2007 Offline
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Quote:
Every top fighter uses the arms in kicking somehow .


Uses, yes. It's a matter of degree and timing. Body mechanics require some movement, we don't kick in complete isolation.

The things I'm trying to point out are pre-movement, throwing the arms then the kick, and/or excessive arm swinging, which leaves the fighter out of position or over committed
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#430287 - 10/02/10 06:58 PM Re: Low kick pivot [Re: matxtx]
Kimo2007 Offline
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Quote:
Using the arms helps with acceleration of the legs


Not quite. The arms allow us to displace more mass forward so that we can run faster without falling on our face. Does it aide in the body mechanics of turning our legs over faster, sure. But's real function is balance and counter balance of mass so a sprinter can lean in and forward that much more.

A kick is also different in it's about transfer of force, you generate then transfer to the target.

So, it's not that you are wrong. Pump your arms makes you run faster, just like swinging you arms back make you kick harder. It's why it's happening that is different.

Here's a thought, maximize was to increase acceleration first, before increasing mass via extra arm movement.

In other words, if you can learn to launch the kick, get get hip turn over and rotation, while keeping your hands in guard first...then see how much other hand movement is really needed or helpful. IMO you'd have faster more powerful kicks, and you have not even tapped into the added mass of throwing the arms yet.

But then, I'm just a guy trying to avoid fixing my yard lights by running his mouth on a blog...
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#430289 - 10/02/10 08:47 PM Re: Low kick pivot [Re: Kimo2007]
Stormdragon Offline
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I get the physics thing (the borred mass you mentioned). The question you asked is, is it worthwhile to have that? I say it can be, but you you can still hurt people without it. It depends. If I step and throw that arm a lot but just throw the kick out of nowhere then you're absolutely right, it's unnacceptably dangerous. I like that extra power so when I want to use it, I mask the step with punchs and I throw that arm, not from my guard, but from the end of a punch (i.e. I'll throw a cross and when I retract it I jsut bring it farther back into that arm swing). Will I always use those extra motions? No, but I like to at times and so far no one has actually gone beyond just blocking my kicks and counter punched throw the openings that are left for a moment or caught me when I step. If that starts happening all the time then I'll know it's a bad idea, so far it hasn't.
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#430298 - 10/04/10 06:11 AM Re: Low kick pivot [Re: Stormdragon]
matt_mcg Offline
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Registered: 03/08/06
Posts: 113
A good kicker can and will kick you in the face when your guard drops if you aren't careful with arm movement when kicking. Particularly if there's something about your movement that telegraphs where your kick is aimed. Some of those head kicks might be less practical in MMA where takedowns are allowed -- I don't know, I train in a pure punch/kick style, so don't normally have to worry about being taken down myself -- but it's certainly true that fast kickers can use them effectively.

That said, I think very very few people are capable of eliminating all arm movement, at all times, and there are no doubt times when you wouldn't want to eliminate arm movement.

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#430304 - 10/04/10 07:43 PM Re: Low kick pivot [Re: matt_mcg]
Stormdragon Offline
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Hasn't happened yet. Obviously you have to be careful but you will always be vulnerable somewhere. If you're worried about any kind of risks at all than you should never kick period. Guys don't become champions by never having any open spots, if you do that you'll never even throw a punch. There must be a reason why every (literally every) mma fighter and kickboxer uses arm motion when throwing round kicks.

Not only are few people capable of eliminating arm movement at all times, it would be stupid to do that. When I throw round kicks I throw that arm out a little, that leaves me open, that's why I angle my head and shoulders away a little bit and use punches to set up the kick. And that arm coems back up fast. It makes you no more vulnerable than throwing an uppercut.
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#430330 - 10/06/10 05:32 PM Re: Low kick pivot [Re: Kimo2007]
matxtx Offline
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Registered: 07/12/05
Posts: 700
Loc: england
Originally Posted By: Kimo2007
Quote:
Every top fighter uses the arms in kicking somehow .


Uses, yes. It's a matter of degree and timing. Body mechanics require some movement, we don't kick in complete isolation.

The things I'm trying to point out are pre-movement, throwing the arms then the kick, and/or excessive arm swinging, which leaves the fighter out of position or over committed


Thats part of learning to fight though.If a person cant do something in a fight which is fundamental then its just needs training and understanding. Anything anyone does in a fight could show pre-movement or leave a fighter out of position. We dont just stop doing things we learn how to do what we need to do in the context of the fight.
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#430331 - 10/06/10 05:40 PM Re: Low kick pivot [Re: Kimo2007]
matxtx Offline
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Registered: 07/12/05
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Loc: england
Originally Posted By: Kimo2007
Quote:
Using the arms helps with acceleration of the legs


Not quite. The arms allow us to displace more mass forward so that we can run faster without falling on our face. Does it aide in the body mechanics of turning our legs over faster, sure. But's real function is balance and counter balance of mass so a sprinter can lean in and forward that much more.

A kick is also different in it's about transfer of force, you generate then transfer to the target.

So, it's not that you are wrong. Pump your arms makes you run faster, just like swinging you arms back make you kick harder. It's why it's happening that is different.

Here's a thought, maximize was to increase acceleration first, before increasing mass via extra arm movement.

In other words, if you can learn to launch the kick, get get hip turn over and rotation, while keeping your hands in guard first...then see how much other hand movement is really needed or helpful. IMO you'd have faster more powerful kicks, and you have not even tapped into the added mass of throwing the arms yet.

But then, I'm just a guy trying to avoid fixing my yard lights by running his mouth on a blog...


I just dont agree. The arms help increase everything. The whole body should be used. How its used in the context of the fight isnt easy to describe its got to be shown or learnt through doing rather than writing so theres no point going too deep. The body should work as one commited whole especialy in a full contact fight where things cant half arsed so just using the lower half or just the hips just isnt going flow or doesnt fit with how the body moves when its in action expecial when in danger.
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#430339 - 10/06/10 11:58 PM Re: Low kick pivot [Re: matxtx]
Kimo2007 Offline
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Posts: 1057
Quote:
I just dont agree. The arms help increase everything.


Well that's fine, but I think we might disagree on method. If you go back to my earlier post I briefly touch on the math of power and the method of delivery. By understanding the math, you can tweak on the method in a more detailed way. IMO.

I agree the whole body needs to work together, the idea that you eliminate the arms completely is taking things to far to other extreme, my concept is efficient use of the arms to maximizes power, within the fight and also the other considerations a fighter has for his arms before during and after the kick. Be it guard, telegraph, follow up strikes, what have you.

I give you the example of the first video where the fighter dropped his arms down as he executed a front thrust kick. He could achieve the same kick, and chambered to a follow up cross, overhand, jab...my point is he could have put his hands in a much more advantageous position then down by his waist. Without loss of power. No bio mechanical reason for his arm movement. Which tells me, he knows how to deliver the power but may not know thy "why" behind it.

Same point I was trying to make with your running analogy. It was not incorrect, and neither is most of your philosophy. It's just about degree, and your also right, hard to get deep in words on the internet so I'll stop trying to keep making the same points when without being there to show you it doesn't help and it's not like there some great martial tragedy happening here or anything.

Side note, Cord posted a video of a guy who showed great arms/leg coordination. I almost wanted to grab the video and edit out some examples of him using kicks with lower body power and arm control with follow up and position that sort of pointed out what I was trying to say.

Not sure if you can rip video off YouTube and edit and do that, but if I have some free time I might give it a shot and post, to further the conversation.
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#430351 - 10/07/10 01:14 PM Re: Low kick pivot [Re: matt_mcg]
Ronin1966 Offline
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Registered: 04/26/02
Posts: 3113
Loc: East Coast, United States
Hello matt_mcg:

Any kick reduces balance by 50%. And regardless of height, if it makes solid contact on the defender that's bad. Arm position can be a deliberate tactic, a "fake". But as you suggest, its probably a baaaaad plan in general to take that risk.

Jeff

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