In this forum, "discipline" means controlling your impulses, and having the work ethic to practice your martial arts in the proper manner and on a regular basis.

First off, sorry to hear about your mother but glad she is recovering!

What you are saying here has a relationship to Taoism (which I follow). Toaism has a particular view of discipline, and it is the reason that many martial arts were founded by the taoists. It is believed that, in order to subdue the ego, one must practice a discipline. What this discipline consists of does not matter, what matters is that it is consistent, not convenient, and physical. One guru got up early every morning for thirty days to move piles of rocks around. Others practice a martial art, or yoga, or qi gong. Hence the saying, "it is only through intense training that one can achieve enlightenment."

Kathryn

Thanks for the good wishes, Kathryn!

TKDfan said
"In this forum, "discipline" means controlling your impulses, and having the work ethic to practice your martial arts in the proper manner and on a regular basis."

Kathryn said, citing Taoism...
Consistent, inconvenient, physical activity = discipline.

You have consistent physical activity in common, but "Inconvenience" instead of TKD's "impulse control", or are those equivalent? Both are uncomfortable, perhaps discomfort is key to discipline, or else it's too easy to be called disciplined...

Re the goal of Tao (to subdue the ego and find enlightenment?):

I have a hard time aiming for a goal I don't understand, but I suppose that's my unsubdued ego. What is enlightenment?

Harmony, balance, simplicity, spontaneity, "naturalness"... ? Kathryn, do you have a definition of enlightenment that you use as a goal for discipline, or is it one of those things that is 'known' but can't be 'shown'? If it's ineffable, perhaps we find it by accident rather than aiming for it...

Well, I was talking about "a discipline"--something external, instead of "discipline" which would be more internal I assume.

Definitely one has to get control of the willful ego to accomplish anything spiritually no matter what the beliefs involved. It's a crucial first step.

Kathryn

Hope: I found a much better answer for you, while skimming through a book entitled "Legacies of the Sword" by Diane Skoss. It is in the chapter entitled "The Martial Path". I'm going to put a paragraph quote here and refer you to the text available on Google books at http://books.google.com/books?id=JXfVINM...p;q&f=false

"Kashima Shinryu masters maintain that those who seek enlightenment must first prepare receptacles into which knowledge has room to enter and understanding has room to develop. Before students are ready to internalize ryuha doctrine, they must first discipline their bodies: the body, as the receptacle, must first acquire the physical skills of detachment, acceptance, balance and resorption--the corporeal side of hoyo-doka. Accordingly, expertise in bujutsu must precede study of the other elements of budo; a student's path must begin with physical training."

Thank you, Kathryn -- I'll be out of town for a couple of weeks but will be able to read this when I get back. Looking forward to it...

HI Kathryn -- It's been a long time since you posted these sources. If you're around and still interested in discussing the concept of 'discipline', I've finally had a chance to think about your quote (and to look up some of the terminology(!))

So, as I understand the quote and its source, (and maybe you or others can correct this), to "empty the cup", to prepare to learn the spiritual or ethical aspects of budo, you need to have developed the physical skills of the warrior arts first (the "corporeal side of hoyo-doka"). Hoyo doka (physical or mental) is a really slippery concept for me, because it seems to involve not only the ability to absorb opponents' energy and unify with it in such a way that his power is reduced to zero, but also the concept (in the google book link pg 67) that the objectivity and detachment you develop in doing so separates the warrior who is "pure of heart" from any moral responsibility for the outcomes of the conflict.

This sounds very different from what I have conceived of as budo, or for that matter, discipline, which doesn't involve a loss of moral responsibility for results of actions (because of "purity" or anything else). You were talking about "A discipline" rather than "discipline" -- it sounds like "a discipline" under the book's definition would be something which gave a person an external value system, and led them to cease using their own judgment or accepting responsibility.

Is this totally different from your reading?

Yeesh, this is getting abstract. I'd rather be training -- it may give me a better physical preparation to understand these points :P

Discipline has more than one meaning. Discipline the verb, is to instill, train or teach another to act or behave a certain way by habit, requiring no conscious decision making process.

Discipline the Noun is simply behaving or acting a certain way out of habit, especially when it doesn't normally come naturally.

What about Disciple?