You said "and yet none of them demonstrate elite performance in any sport, where pro athletes use other training methods and do." then
"The world is full of people achieving great things despite their training. Ussain Bolt is a prime example - ask any sprint coach and they will tell you his running form is horrible. Now should he content himself with being as good as he is despite his faults, or should he attempt to become even better by fixing them?"
So elite athletes that use the training methods you support count as evidence for your argument but elite athletes that take the approach I support don't count as evidence for my argument? Frankly I call BS on that.

"So your 'optimal' training is actually a cheap compromise based on what can be maintained within the limitations of the job."

You stated similar stuff through the whole discussion while I continually told you I didnt think it was the most important part of training.

Then you keep saying how the military hangs on because of convienance and money. That's only true in basic training. When you get to your unit that is no longer an issue yet they still continue incorporating traditional workouts into their overall approach. Why would that be? They have access to gym facilities and modern training methods and have the time when not deployed so why use high rep calisthenics still?
I think I have a little better idea of how the military works (in America anyway) than you do. You seem to think the military is all basic training stuff because that's the ONLY time when you don't have time and access to well equiped gym facilities.

And I don't understand how you've never seen someone do more than 20 perfect pushups or situps. I see that all the time. It's no uncommon. Even after an hour workout. I do it all the time. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rICgEMAzc2w crossfit or not, doesn't matter. You can do a workout using sets of 20 reps or more with good form on all of them. You stop when your form gets worse.

I just don't get why elite athlete training methods are only evidence for your point bu not mine if they use the methods I think are valid. I think people in your neck of the woods would sa that that is bollocks.

OK. Here goes. Elite, professional athletes, all have a genetic advantage that practically predetermines their success to a point in their sport. It would be wrong to say that with any training system, you can take someone without these genetic advantages and make them world beaters. Life is not like that.
But there are more and more athletes who are finding that by training with biomechanics and kinesiology as the focus, not their muscles per se, that they are breaking plateaus, and reducing injury. In short, they are improving with smart training, not just hard training - and there is a difference.
Strength-endurance athletes across the board are replacing volume with specificity. Why should this not make sense to you?



But you have stated that it is part of your idea of optimal training. I am saying that if that nature of your job didnt involve the possibility of having to maintain your fitness in a non equipped environment, with no regular scheduled programme (ie, when deployed to a war zone), then aspects of that training regime could be swapped for more effective practices.



Answered above.



You know the military. I know the human body and how to train it to the best of its ability. Unless your're issued new physiology at boot camp, the rules of what works best apply to us all the same.

If you want to argue that push ups help your functional stamina, then fine, but seeing as how they do not focus on prime power generators, do not replicate any movement that will help you lift anything, carry anything, run with equipment, aid your grip, improve rotational strength, I think you are overplaying their value.

Much like in prison, high rep bodyweight work is favoured, because its available anytime, anywhere.



Well, to be fair, I was alluding to pull ups and the high rep crossfit footage you see than good old push ups.

For wacky push up form, you have to look to the record breaking crew:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=th9eRZkEj...t=1&index=1

I'll let you decide if this level of awesome stamina is more applicable on the battlefield, or in gay porn :/;)

Look, I get it ok, you are serving, and part of that is having to have absolute trust in the training you are being given, and the machine moving that cog. I would even say it would be worrying if you didnt get all up on your toes when it was questioned.

I have the luxury to speak freely and observe issues in your training. People like you protect that right, and I thank you, but it doesnt mean that you are correct in this thread.
War is your arena. If you tell me the best way to storm a building is 'A', then I am not going to argue 'B'.
Physical training is my arena. Before you enlisted, you trusted my advice, now you follow someone else's. That's ok, but dont go all shouty and throwing claims of 'BS' and 'Bollocks' at me because I say something you dont want to hear. Its not becoming of a man in your position.

"I have the luxury to speak freely and observe issues in your training. People like you protect that right, and I thank you, but it doesnt mean that you are correct in this thread.
War is your arena. If you tell me the best way to storm a building is 'A', then I am not going to argue 'B'.
Physical training is my arena. Before you enlisted, you trusted my advice, now you follow someone else's. That's ok, but dont go all shouty and throwing claims of 'BS' and 'Bollocks' at me because I say something you dont want to hear. Its not becoming of a man in your position."
Meh I'd pretty much agree that this is a reasonable perspective. I can respect that.
Now, I didn't say BS and bollocks to your opinion, because everyone is entitled to an opinion and it's my job to support the use of free speech, and god knows you know this stuff better than most, I said it because honestly you started coming across with what sounded a lot like a double standard and it sounded a lot like you were not listening to me when I told you that I didn't see high rep bodyweight training as the most important or even a real big part of training and it got to be extremely frustrating.
I'm sorry to sound a little rough, but I don't really care if that's manly or not. It doesn't really have much to do with being a man. Active duty troops tend to just talk that way. It doesn't really strike me as that shocking anymore. You get used to it after awhile. I'll try to avoid that out of respect though.
I don't mean to start a fight over this, I never thought I was being all that hostile. Just desensitization (sp?).
Sucks your vertebrae resulted in losing athletic opportunities, I got mono my senior year and it ended my wrestling season which was actually shaping up to be pretty successful.

And hey I really appreciate the thanks, we're not all the cold hearted murderers the media portrays us as. Actually we're under very similar ROE as police forces in most cases (well in Iraq anyway not totally sure how A-stan is I'll find out in 2012-Wish I could've been there for this deployment, I believe i nthat fight much more).

To hijack the thread, I wouldn't say that you guys are depicted as that at all. No matter how people may see the war(s), nobody I've seen (except nuts on the fringes) isn't respectful and greatful for the services you all provide.

And it seemed to me that you were not listening to my attempts to clarify my position. To quote Led Zeppelin, its a communiacation breakdown.



Well, I am not exactly a wallflower mate, I dont mind taking what I dish, its just you seemed to be having a go at me as a person, as opposed to the points I presented. Just suprised me seeing as how we have such a positive personal history on the site. No biggy though, I know the US military removes brain cells in all its ground force troops upon enlistment, so I'll put it down to that



Life is life. As long as you're breathing, suck it up and do what you can. Any other attitude and life will break you like a twig in a storm.

As to public opinion of the troops of all allied nations out in the middle east, nobody in your home countries will ever repeat the disgusting behaviour of the Vietnam campaign. We are all smart enough to understand that even if we think you shouldnt be there, its not down to you, and that you are doing a job in the name of your country that none of us answered the call to do. I also think that, while Iraq was a a complete misjudgement, Afghanistan was/is a valid response to an overt act of war - nothing else could have been done in light of 9/11, and kicking the Taliban in the nuts is a fine and just goal.

In the UK, love for the armed forces has never been higher. Heroes one and all. Now Dubya and Blair, that's another story.......

We know that, bro. You might be surprised that there is much military support here at home. I supported the Taliban action wholly, and even though I totally disagree with the Iraq action, I support the troops - period. You guys on the front line deserve nothing less.

You guys mirror my own thoughts on these conflicts prett much exactly.
And you're all right, there is a LOT of support here. I think even liberals realize the damage that is done in the long run by vietnam era vet treatment. Unfortunetly, there are a few places here (Portland OR for instance) where numerous people not only hate both wars but the military itself. My town deoesn't have that problem, most don't, but my buddy whose training to be a Marine officer gets a lot of s$it from people at PSU and in that whole city in general. It's petty sad. I know my German friends say that most people over there have a terrible opinion of us. And think 9/11 was just an inside job. Ugh drives me insane. It's too bad but there will always be people with crappy opinions.
The good thing is while you get that in some of the bigger pop. centers (like Portland or Seattle), the majority of places are not like that. I was shocked at the welcome home ceremony. Felt great. We had a huge biker group lead us home. And the benefits and job/education opportunities provided even for us reservists is astounding now.

Cord-It's pretty awesome that our "mother country" which was our biggest enemy for a long time is now our biggest ally. Despite bein pretty small I'm amazed at the contribution y'all make. Really good troops too. Some guys I served with hung out with the Brits on their last trip to Iraq. Most are A-stan now so I only met Aussies but that's alright I guess.

Back to strengthening. Is there any reason why suddenly now that I'm in my 20's I'm gaining strength and weight again? Is there truth to the whole muscle maturity thing?

Off topic continued: Any home-team anti military feeling is normally centred around towns/cities that have bases in them/near them. Heroes to a man they may be, but squaddies act like a$$holes in bars/clubs when their energies are not directed at an enemy. Tensions run high in local communities disrupted by such behaviour - got nothing to do with the job the military does. That is the dynamic in the UK anyway.



Back on topic, in short, yes. High test. levels combined with a body that is already conditioned by a history of hard lifting, and familiar with it, is ideally primed to make the most of it.

The great thing is that strength is probably the most age friendly facet of fitness. Even people in rest homes can register quick and dramatic improvement to mobility and daily function with basic monitored resistance exercise, and its not uncommon for power lifters to be competetive in their 50's and senior division weightlifters to take overall honours at comps.

Injury and lifestyle/motivation are more limiting factors than age.