FightingArts Estore
Pressure Points
From a medical professional, straight facts on where and how to hit that can save your life.
Stretching
Limber or not, anyone can add height and speed to their kicks with this method.
Calligraphy
For yourself or as a gift, calligraphy is special, unique and lasting.
Karate Uniforms
Look your best. Max snap. low cost & superior crafted: “Peak Performance Gold” 16 oz uniforms.

MOTOBU
Classic book translation. Hard to find. Not in stores.
Who's Online
0 registered (), 43 Guests and 4 Spiders online.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Newest Members
mohdnabeel, sunny, swordy, jerrybarry24, SenseiGregT
22915 Registered Users
Top Posters (30 Days)
futsaowingchun 3
Matakiant 3
AndyLA 3
Bartfast 1
GojuRyuboy13 1
October
Su M Tu W Th F Sa
1 2 3 4
5 6 7 8 9 10 11
12 13 14 15 16 17 18
19 20 21 22 23 24 25
26 27 28 29 30 31
New Topics
Tan,Bong,Fuk & Wu Sao
by futsaowingchun
Yesterday at 12:10 AM
Living a full life violence free...
by GojuRyuboy13
09/25/14 08:50 AM
Wing Chun-internal training
by futsaowingchun
09/23/14 09:01 PM
Martial News
by Matakiant
09/23/14 06:42 AM
STX Kickboxing Seminar
by Marcus Charles
09/09/14 06:57 PM
Biu Tzu- 1st section applications
by futsaowingchun
09/05/14 10:56 PM
An open letter to bunkai researchers...
by Bartfast
08/05/14 04:18 PM
The Karate punch
by Matakiant
10/30/13 07:41 AM
** Introduce Yourself! **
by
05/13/07 08:02 AM
Eugue Ryu
by
03/27/07 12:06 AM
Recent Posts
Tan,Bong,Fuk & Wu Sao
by futsaowingchun
Yesterday at 12:10 AM
An open letter to bunkai researchers...
by Victor Smith
09/28/14 07:11 PM
Living a full life violence free...
by GojuRyuboy13
09/25/14 08:50 AM
Wing Chun-internal training
by futsaowingchun
09/23/14 09:01 PM
Martial News
by Matakiant
09/23/14 06:42 AM
attacked from behind
by AndyLA
09/19/14 09:05 AM
The Karate punch
by Matakiant
09/18/14 06:07 AM
** Introduce Yourself! **
by Zombie Zero
09/16/14 04:43 PM
Eugue Ryu
by kolslaw
09/12/14 03:35 PM
Biu Tzu- 1st section applications
by futsaowingchun
09/05/14 10:56 PM
Forum Stats
22915 Members
36 Forums
35579 Topics
432500 Posts

Max Online: 424 @ 09/24/13 10:38 PM
Page 6 of 9 < 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 >
Topic Options
#290626 - 11/02/06 06:07 PM Re: Rules of Bunkai [Re: kakushiite]
shoshinkan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/10/05
Posts: 2662
Loc: UK
Personally I think the kata teach us certain 'lessons',

In actual application we do what we need, it might happen in kata order, it might be one movement, it might be one movement from one kata and then another movement from another kata.

we might get hit a little bit...........or even break our 'perfect' posture!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I think the term 'free from the kata' comes to mind here, and it takes a fair bit of training to get there,

It also takes a fair bit of the right combination of trianing to get there.

kata alone is pretty................useless.
_________________________
Jim Neeter

www.shoshinkanuk.blogspot.com

Top
#290627 - 11/02/06 08:25 PM Re: Rules of Bunkai [Re: JoeSan]
Ronin1966 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 04/26/02
Posts: 3113
Loc: East Coast, United States



Jeff

Top
#290628 - 11/02/06 08:33 PM Re: Rules of Bunkai [Re: shoshinkan]
Ronin1966 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 04/26/02
Posts: 3113
Loc: East Coast, United States
Hello Shoshinkan:

<<kata alone is pretty................useless.



You intend to learn the movements by magic? The movements once learned then lead to the applications... the applications uncover concepts, principles, whispers of ideas..... etceteria.

The orignal question was not did they work but rather HOW we explored the explainations FOR these kata... as I understood the question anyway

Did I get it wrong?
Jeff

Top
#290629 - 11/03/06 02:43 AM Re: Rules of Bunkai [Re: Ronin1966]
shoshinkan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/10/05
Posts: 2662
Loc: UK
fair point, I was just blowing off.
_________________________
Jim Neeter

www.shoshinkanuk.blogspot.com

Top
#290630 - 11/06/06 11:05 AM Rules of bunkai [Re: oldman]
BrianS Offline
Higher rank than you
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 5959
Loc: Northwest Arkansas
_________________________
The2nd ammendment, it makes all the others possible. <///<




Top
#290631 - 11/09/06 05:34 AM Re: Rules of Bunkai [Re: eyrie]
TeK9 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/22/05
Posts: 2257
Loc: Northern California, USA
First rule of bunkai, we don't talk about bunkai.
Second rule of bunkai, we DON'T talk about bunkai.

Are these the rules in most karate schools or just in korean karate?
_________________________
"Poor is the pupil who
does not surpass his
master" - Leonardo Da
Vinci

Top
#290632 - 11/09/06 07:05 PM Re: Rules of Bunkai [Re: TeK9]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
Tek, you've been watching too much FightClub....

Top
#290633 - 11/09/06 09:53 PM Re: Rules of Bunkai [Re: TeK9]
kakushiite Offline
Member

Registered: 02/06/03
Posts: 266
Loc: Ithaca, NY, USA
Tek9,

I believe I can provide some insight into your question. But before answering, would you please provide me some info. I would like to understand the typical training that a student goes through in your school to get to blackbelt. Let's assume an above-average student (i.e one that is enthusiastic, has good attendance and is fairly athletic.)

Average number of years before promotion:
Average hours per week of training in the school:
Average percent of time in the school practicing kata:
Number of empty hand kata learned:
Number of weapons kata learned:

Please answer these (estimates are great) and I can give my perspective on this problem.

-Kakushite

Top
#290634 - 11/09/06 11:52 PM Re: Rules of Bunkai [Re: kakushiite]
TeK9 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/22/05
Posts: 2257
Loc: Northern California, USA
I have earned two black belts. One in a traditional system of taekwondo and one in the modern sports style of TKD. I know that it is possible for a gifted student to earn their bb in 3 years in each system according to both of my teachers. However, noone at either of the two schools ever has. At an average it takes 4 years+ to earn a black belt.

I earned my first bb in 4+ years, I round it up four. We had heavy emphasis on kata, self defense, and step sparring. I trained 5x's a week sometimes for three hours and sometimes for two hours a day. Every once in a while I would attend saturday classes for extreme workouts two hours non stop.

We did kata from 4 systems of korean karate: Pyung, taegueks, chon hon, pal gwe, and kee cho sets.+impromptu kata, +weapons kata, +musical kata. So we had arond 43-45 katas to do for a bb test. The last three were not self defense based but performance based.

The classes were two hour long and on average we spent 1 hour on kata alone.

We did not do bunkai in the sense that the techniques pulled for self defense applications were not taken from the exact sequence in which they were in the kata, instead we had a seperate set of sequences set up for each scenerio of attack. So if your wondering about our tuite (grappling) training, that would be out of a judo/jujutsu. It woud look nothing like the katas. Only the striking portion of step sparring looked like kata and even those were not in the same sequence as the kata. So as you can see from my experience with kata and the way I was taught self defense I have really no appreciation for kata.

We took the time to use nearly all the empty hand strikes found in karate/taekwondo, strikes for specific points of the bod, something I feel is seriously lacking in todays korean karate, were mainly the fist is used and the othre strikes ignored.

My second school, which is more sports based, we only do one set of kata, 9 kata for a black belt. Some step sparring, lots of step sparring for sport. Heavy emphasis on sparring, foot work for sparring, bag drills for power, padle drills for reaction time, judging distance, endless sparring combinations, and sparring strategy. Three years to earn a black belt however, there is a higher level of skil require for bb, so it has taken students 5-7 years to earn a bb. Here kata is only practiced as formailty for testing, however, it is practiced so that balance and power is very well developed incase the student wishes to enter kata competition. Literally no application is taught from the kata, if y chance your school teaches self defense, ten most likely it would be from hapkido or jujutsu. No weapons taught at this school, strictly competition based.
_________________________
"Poor is the pupil who
does not surpass his
master" - Leonardo Da
Vinci

Top
#290635 - 11/10/06 03:56 AM Re: Rules of bunkai [Re: BrianS]
Bossman Offline
Veteran

Registered: 08/25/03
Posts: 1785
Loc: Chatham Kent UK
In taiji we say that you study movement in feet, then inches, then hundredths of an inch, then thousandths of an inch and then hundredths of a thousandth of an inch.

As we layer in the principles and subsequent skills we find that it's more about principles than techniques - it's more about your ability to maintain your centre, root, structure, mindset, breathing and then disrupt any one of those in your opponent to make whatever you do effective. Being able to 'hide' your centre from your opponent, locate theirs and disrupt it takes a lot of solitary form practice and then test it in application.

Techniques quickly gives way to principles, the problem I see with a lot of 'bunkai' practiced is that the opponent is still compliant - and although quite ingenious, is still unlikely to work agains a fighting opponent.

Even looking at the 'deadly' applications, if the practitioner doesn't have the above principles in place and the opponent does, it won't work.

Therefore I see kata as a trininity:

1. Health (mental and physical) good health entails getting posture, breathing, mindset, internal system, good centering etc..

2. Skills - the ability to disrupt a moving fighting opponent.

3. Application - breaking each movement down into tiny pieces to examine the grappling (seperating muscle and tendon from bone, stopping the flow of blood, air and energy), locking, throwing, dislocating, striking and blocking uses of each part of a movement.

Kata can be an excellent way of practice if you can practice your MA deep enough. If you only look at the surface technique and try to apply it without those hours of solitary and paired practice to understand where the physical and mental power comes from, you can only be skimming the surface.

When I look at the body language of even the 'experts' who commercially package their bunkai, I ask myself are they convinced that it would work or is it just a clever commercial mind making a sows ear out of a silk purse?
_________________________
supporting standards in the martial arts www.shikon.com www.masa.org.uk

Top
Page 6 of 9 < 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 >


Moderator:  Ames, Cord, MattJ, Reiki, Ronin1966 




Action Ads
1.5 Million Plus Page Views
Monthly
Only $89
Details

Ryukyu Art
Artifacts from the Ryukyu Kingdom missing since WWII. Visit www.ShisaLion.Org to view pictures

Best Stun Guns
Self Defense Products-stun guns, pepper spray, tasers and more

Surveillance 4U
Complete surveillance systems for covert operations or secure installation security

Asylum Images
Book presents photo tour of the Trans-Allegany Lunatic Asylum. A must if you're going to take a ghost tour!

 



Unbreakable Unbrella

krav maga