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#420546 - 07/01/09 07:13 AM Re: The "Classical Mess" [Re: MattJ]
JKogas Offline
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Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
Right on Matt.


Chen Zen! What's up bro?! That's a good point about OJKD. But what I'm discovering is that the main problem may be the fact that such "arts" (like so many traditional arts) are taught in a linear fashion. I think that is essentially why so much material has been dropped by those who train functionally.

For example, I learned a lot of material coming up that I was taught in a specific manner. We called that 'training'. Yet when taught as it was, in a linear fashion, it never translated over to sparring or fighting, because fighting doesn't play out like that (is non-linear I suppose you could say).

When I abandoned linear style training (one technique, then another technique, then another, 'stacked' together) and only trained functionally, over some period of time, I was able to begin to put some of those techniques I had learned into the mix and have them actually work (one example being, the kenjit found in silat).

Through spending enough time boxing and wrestling, I managed to find the timing necessary to make it work. Not all of it mind you, or even a lot of it.

And I think that's one of the problems with training "arts" as they often are, in that linear fashion, as opposed to just teaching principles or adding techniques in here and there and having people just train it with aliveness. In fact, I believe that the linear approach often defines an art and people are loath to give that up.

Later I discovered that, perhaps, part of the problem was the cultural differences in the areas where these particular arts originated. And this may sound odd so it's just a theory but, here in the west, our timing (athletic, western boxing timing) could be different than those who say, taught silat in Malaysia or the Philippines and thus to make some of those things work, it has to be practiced with western boxing to develop the timing for use here. Does that make any sense? I'm just curious.

Just a thought.

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#420591 - 07/03/09 07:22 PM Re: The "Classical Mess" [Re: JKogas]
Chen Zen Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/09/03
Posts: 7043
Loc: Ms
It makes perfect sense. It all comes back to aliveness in "training". I went through much of the same thing, as I used to train very traditional TKD. Later I worked o boxing and Muay Thai and the difference in training was frightening, and very eye opening. However, how do you train for functionality, and still keep the pure tradionalism, and can you? Personally I dont think its possible, but Im not a purist either so it doesnt bother me like it would, say a traditional karateka or judoka
_________________________
"When I let Go of who I am, I become who I might be."
Lao Tzu

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#420593 - 07/03/09 08:39 PM Re: The "Classical Mess" [Re: Chen Zen]
JKogas Offline
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Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
Originally Posted By: Chen Zen
...the difference in training was frightening, and very eye opening.


Yes, it can be, especially if you've never really experienced functional, alive training. It's even worse if you happen to wind up in a gym with an a-hole coach (in some of those cases, there may not be any "progressive" resistance).


Originally Posted By: Chen Zen

However, how do you train for functionality, and still keep the pure tradionalism, and can you? Personally I dont think its possible, but Im not a purist either so it doesnt bother me like it would, say a traditional karateka or judoka



What I have found is that there is always traditionalism in different forms. But I'm guessing you are referring to the more ritualistic practice, board breaking, hitting/kicking the air, line drills, kata, etc? If so, I would agree. I don't think you can have the best of both worlds. Well, perhaps you could, but you would really be cutting into your time.

It's like I have always said, if people love kata, great. Do it. Do everything and then include some functional, alive training as well. That works if you have endless time to train or, simply enjoy practicing dead patterns, etc. Hey you know, to each his own. Personally, I couldn't do it. I just can't. I can't even hardly practice the "RAT" (PFS-JKD drill).

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#420606 - 07/04/09 02:15 PM Re: The "Classical Mess" [Re: JKogas]
IExcalibui2 Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 05/20/06
Posts: 961
Loc: New York City
you can't split everything 50/50 I agree. But traditional training also varies depending on the instructor and on the art. I know this isnt exactly alive but I'm going to use Southern Praying Mantis as an example. But just to let you know, San Da/free fighting is supposed to be a part of ALL chinese martial arts. But you also start to free fight and spar(not all the time, I've sparred with my colleagues) in the later stages of training, a time frame "comparable" to once you get your black belt?

But Southern Praying Mantis employs A LOT of partnered drills. The drills are patterned so they arent really all that alive, but there is a bit of a resistance from your partner. The benefit I would say is that it becomes instinctive for you to learn how to block an on coming attack or stick to another person's arm or when there is a bridge you know how to manipulate the sticky hands to gain advantage because you've drilled it in your head 10000x times.

I personally noticed that I can repeat parts of those patterned drills when working on some exercises outside of my kung fu class. Just like how other arts have combinations, I think of the partnered drills as combos.

Again this is all part of the non-free fighting stage of my training. So when I do, one day, get to the San Da portion of the art, well I'd have a decent sense on how to move and react. And I feel my training is actually pretty traditional
_________________________
"you're going to work till you wish you were dead and then keep going.." -Sgt Slaughter

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#420787 - 07/11/09 04:24 PM Re: The "Classical Mess" [Re: JKogas]
Chen Zen Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/09/03
Posts: 7043
Loc: Ms
There isnt enough time for it for me either. Also, when I began to look at the economy of my movements, that threw out just about everything and really streamlined my striking to near nothing as far as volume of techniques, but this only improved my game. More time= better training
_________________________
"When I let Go of who I am, I become who I might be."
Lao Tzu

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#420790 - 07/11/09 06:13 PM Re: The "Classical Mess" [Re: Chen Zen]
IExcalibui2 Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 05/20/06
Posts: 961
Loc: New York City
I still think you can train traditionally and for functionality. Just have to know how to use your time.

Its like weight lifting. There are intense days and then there are the less intense, "rest," cardio days. But no matter how you look at it you are still exercising everyday to better yourself.
_________________________
"you're going to work till you wish you were dead and then keep going.." -Sgt Slaughter

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#426677 - 04/27/10 06:14 PM Re: The "Classical Mess" [Re: IExcalibui2]
trevek Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/15/05
Posts: 3337
Loc: Poland
I can't see how OJKD would be split between boxing, WC and fancing, as none of these have any real wrestling features, and Lee was familiar with wrestling/Judo enough to know its worth.

The OJKD fossilisation is interesting. Does anyone fell MMA is going the same way? It now seems MMA, which was originally about different styles fighting, has now become a kind of fixed system of BJJ and Muay Thai. You learn an MMA syllabus.
_________________________
See how well I block your punches with my jaw!!

Supporting everyone saying "nuts to cancer"

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#426719 - 04/28/10 06:24 PM Re: The "Classical Mess" [Re: trevek]
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
Originally Posted By: trevek
Does anyone fell MMA is going the same way? It now seems MMA, which was originally about different styles fighting, has now become a kind of fixed system of BJJ and Muay Thai. You learn an MMA syllabus.


Marc Denny refers to Thai boxing, wrestling, BJJ as "Generic Cage Fighting". There is an MMA syllabus. Those arts simply have to be in place as it's difficult (near impossible) to compete without them as your foundation.

It will be what is done beyond those things that will set people apart (such as Lyoto Machida).

On that note, I was surprised to recently discover that Machida is a BJJ black belt! That came as a slight shock to me considering that he doesn't display the "normal" skill-set of a generic cage fighter. I mean, when do you really see the BJJ in his game? He's a really interesting example of what can be done beyond that generic game plan.

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#426757 - 04/29/10 10:35 PM Re: The "Classical Mess" [Re: JKogas]
Taison Offline
The Forum Dragon
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/06/05
Posts: 3629
Loc: BKK, Thailand
Phil Baroni.

He might not have the best record, but his boxing is quite nice to see. I mean a lot of people train boxing (Rashad!) but they don't really display much 'boxing' skills as Phil does.

-Donnie
_________________________
I got two fists.. Don't make me use my head as well!

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#426824 - 05/01/10 07:17 PM Re: The "Classical Mess" [Re: Taison]
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
I'll give Baroni this much, he isn't a conservative fighter. He'll often either light someone up or get lit up himself.

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