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#426812 - 05/01/10 01:17 AM Re: Back pain [Re: LoneFox]
Gavin Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/11/05
Posts: 2267
Loc: Southend, Essex, UK
Obviously seeing a doctor is always the safe advice but I'd also suggest seeing a bodyworker of some description. Looking through your post history you had a calf tear a while back didn't you? These two bits of anatomy share a common functional bond as part of what is sometimes called the superficial back line... here is a picture:

http://www.bbcfl.com/BBCFL%20-%20Newslet...back%20Line.gif

Dysfunction and excess tension in any part of this chain spreads throughout the entire line. Quite often though the backline is often the victim of the piece and not always the villain. The real problem can be because of the front pulling too tightly (I think you mention chiseled abs in one post?) which makes the backline have to pull even harder... til in snaps. On a deeper level many problems can be tracked to the bodys core which is referred to as the deep front line in the model the above picture comes from.

I personally wouldn't recommend going to see a chiro... just a personal opinion on treatment theories. Looking at what we know of your history I'd recommend finding a good myofascial release specialist, structural integration bodyworker or a rolfer... I don't know where you are from but Tom Myers KMI program has produced so highly reputed bodyworkers:

http://www.anatomytrains.com/kmi/practitioners
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#426813 - 05/01/10 06:39 AM Re: Back pain [Re: Gavin]
Cord Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/13/05
Posts: 11399
Loc: Cambridge UK.
You know I am all for postural integrity as a form of prevention Gavin, but no way, having had the injury already occurr, and being so long term and chronic, would I go straight to treatment before proper diagnosis.

Scan - pinpoint problem - appropriate remedial treatment - long term postural maintenance.

No matter how good these guys are, they are still not trained to a level comparable with mainstream back specialists when it comes to diagnosis. They do not have the tools, nor the resources to be so. Bear in mind I am talking about orthopedic specialists, not GP's here.

MRI as a first stop FTW.
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#426822 - 05/01/10 05:35 PM Re: Back pain [Re: Cord]
Gavin Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/11/05
Posts: 2267
Loc: Southend, Essex, UK
Bones don't pull themselves out of alignment so sorting tissue dysfunction is a priority. An MRI will only tell you that there is a problem not what is causing it. As I said going to the doctor is always the advice but seeing a decent bodyworker from the start will provide relief and possibly a solution that doesn't involve going under the knife. I've had a couple of clients who've been told they'd need operations but avoided them through therapy and a well designed rehab program. The doctor is obviously covering the bases and making sure... but seeing a decent bodyworker will almost certainly provide relief and could save unnecessary work having to be done.

If it is chronic I'd also say that this is even more reason to see a postural specialist.
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#426823 - 05/01/10 06:59 PM Re: Back pain [Re: Gavin]
JMWcorwin Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 07/13/07
Posts: 731
Loc: SoCal, USA
Avoiding back surgery is always a plus, and most people that are told they need it, don't. So, that being said, it still doesn't change the fact that the OP should probably at least get the MRI to make sure there's no structural damage that could be made worse by someone like a rolfer. While I know an incredible guy for that in LA, I still wouldn't jump to that BEFORE finding out the severity and nature of the injury. If the OP is near LA/Glendale to be exact, let me know and I can give you a referral. This guy is my own personal Jesus, man. I took my mom to see him at one point when she was so bad she was stuck in a wheelchair. But she walked out of the office after the treatment. The guy's a miracle worker.

BUT---- find a way to get the damn MRI first. Even if you get it done and then skip out on paying. They'll work that out later. But, if you take a fractured vertebrae and start letting someone hammer on it, you may end up with something much more permanent. Just my opinion, but I am speaking from experience. You can do yourself a whole lotta damage by jumping into treatment without being sure of the injury. I gotta back Cord on this one.
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#426825 - 05/01/10 08:06 PM Re: Back pain [Re: Gavin]
Cord Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/13/05
Posts: 11399
Loc: Cambridge UK.
Originally Posted By: Gavin
Bones don't pull themselves out of alignment so sorting tissue dysfunction is a priority. An MRI will only tell you that there is a problem not what is causing it. As I said going to the doctor is always the advice but seeing a decent bodyworker from the start will provide relief and possibly a solution that doesn't involve going under the knife. I've had a couple of clients who've been told they'd need operations but avoided them through therapy and a well designed rehab program. The doctor is obviously covering the bases and making sure... but seeing a decent bodyworker will almost certainly provide relief and could save unnecessary work having to be done.

If it is chronic I'd also say that this is even more reason to see a postural specialist.


Nobody would doubt that back pain is largely symptomatic of trouble elsewhere, btu what bodyworkers are prone to doing is 'reverse chiropracty' , ie, at its birth, chiropractors sold the snake oil that all ailments could be solved by making the spine align and be 'healthy'.
Now we have a method of thought that offers secondary therapy as a cure-all for the spine, and its just not that simple.

If a disk is irretrievably prolapsed/ruptured, then no amount of postural therapy will alleviate the pressure on the surrounding nerves.

The level of damage cannot be 'felt' externaly, and needs to be seen through the use of medical scanning.

The severity fo the 'symptom' then dictates the method of treatment, which may well rely completely on secondary focus, be it fascial or muskulo-skeletal, but if the diagnosis shows the syptom to be beyond the reach of non invasive procedure, it is vital that be ascertained quickly to ensure that the nerve integrity is not compromised through a prolonged period of contra-indicated activity.
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Don't let the door hit ya' where the good lord split ya'
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#426830 - 05/01/10 10:37 PM Re: Back pain [Re: Cord]
LoneFox Offline
Member

Registered: 11/19/08
Posts: 29
Cord I notice that when I sleep on my back it seems much better, I'm going to the doc Monday by the way. If he tells me to scan and then I hear surgery then its out of my reach right there. But I notice from my few days of resting it that the pain has lessen. Still I'm going to check it.

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#426831 - 05/02/10 02:39 AM Re: Back pain [Re: Cord]
Gavin Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/11/05
Posts: 2267
Loc: Southend, Essex, UK
A predictable response. Firstly the diagnosis of a ruptured/prolapsed disc is an armchair diagnosis - what could be affectionately termed a 'pub diagnosis'.

I won't get in a tit for tat argument here with you mate because that is what seems to happen every time I seem to encroach on your little corner of the web. Its getting a little boring arguing every time and although we share similar opinions our experience and the awareness is vastly different.

Lonefox - Go and see the doctor. If the medical fees are a problem, most chiro's are qualified to do x-rays which can usually pick up any potential disc problems. If there is a disc problem again this doesn't immediately mean you will need surgery - I have a number of clients who have been told they have disc problems and coped perfectly well without surgery.

As Cord has been very keen to point out to me many times in the past people have managed for thousands of years without these new fan dangled 'medical sciences'. The body has a wonderful ability to adapt and evolve, and in my experience it does this a lot better when the system is in a state of balance and ease.

Quote:
But I notice from my few days of resting it that the pain has lessen. Still I'm going to check it.


There is a clue here! wink If the pain lessens through rest and increases when you do what ever you're doing in your daily life... perhaps you might need to change something your doing in your daily life.

In closing note, I'm a physical therapist who deals with a fair amount of post-op and pre-op clients (not of the gender reassignment variety BTW) and if *I* had a back problem, based on my experience as a therapist, martial artist and someone who has dealt with a lot of bad backs my first port of call would be seeing the best bodyworker I could find. BUT this my personal opinion having dealt with and had bad backs myself. You have also been given sound advice from people whom have had bad backs and spoke to people who have had backs themselves... remember this is the internet and everyone is an expert.

See the doctor, but I'd personally want to explore all possibilities. A bodyworker worth their salt will not make a problem worse, they should have the sensitivity, awareness and humility to refer you if needed.... as should a good surgeon. However in my experience sometimes neither party has the ability to refer appropriately. Which again goes back to the old adage that 'your health is your responsibility' and you should listen to your body, the experts and the weirdos from the internet and make an informed decision.


Edited by Gavin (05/02/10 02:45 AM)
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#426866 - 05/02/10 02:32 PM Re: Back pain [Re: Gavin]
Cord Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/13/05
Posts: 11399
Loc: Cambridge UK.
Originally Posted By: Gavin
A predictable response. Firstly the diagnosis of a ruptured/prolapsed disc is an armchair diagnosis - what could be affectionately termed a 'pub diagnosis'.

I won't get in a tit for tat argument here with you mate because that is what seems to happen every time I seem to encroach on your little corner of the web. Its getting a little boring arguing every time and although we share similar opinions our experience and the awareness is vastly different.


Ouch. I dont know who took the jam out of your donut today mate, but dont take it out on me frown

I know I am just an old bloke who has been out of the game a long time, but a 'pub diagnostition' I am not. As a sports therapist I worked in sports rehab for a decade, and have had a fair few (read hundreds) of success stories myself.

You talk of humility and people on both sides of the medical fence knowing their limits.

All I will say here is that I concurr, and that is part and parcel of my recommendations.

From personal experience, my wife'd back 'went' very badly in 2000 before I met her. 4 months bed ridden, and the next year when we met she was on crutches, with a wasted left leg. Hydrotherapy, core classes, accupuncture, physio rehab were all enforced upon her as she waited for an MRI that was promised, but never came. All the therapy had no effect whatsoever. I worked with her on her ITB's, hamstring/glute engagement and posture and she was able to walk down the aisle unaided, but was still in a lot of trouble. 2003 and still no scan as she had been 'lost' in the system, so I saved up, and we went private for a one off, which then showed complete degenration of 3 lumbar disks. The specialist then kindly piggybacked us back into the NHS for a laminectomy. The op was a success, but because the dead disk tissue had been crushing the nerves for so long (nearly 4 years at that point), there was permanent nerve damage, and my wife will be debilatated forever, no matter how many foam rollers and multifidus exercises people throw at her.

An earlier scan would have led to a better outcome.

Lone Fox has already said repeatedly that money is an issue, so he would be better to invest in DIAGNOSIS, that can then be used by any branch of medicine he can afford from there, than htting and hoping in the largely unregulated world of complimentary therapy.

That is my HUMBLE opinion.

Peace.
_________________________
Don't let the door hit ya' where the good lord split ya'
http://cord.mybrute.com

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#426867 - 05/02/10 03:49 PM Re: Back pain [Re: Cord]
Gavin Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/11/05
Posts: 2267
Loc: Southend, Essex, UK
Foam rollers = myofascial??? I see now - you really need to read around the subject more.

But all is cool mate. My jam is firmly jammy and tasty and the advice is all sound. You diagnosing a 'sounds like a herniated/ruptured disc' from a one paragraph list of symptoms is a 'pub diagnosis' and isn't sound. I'm trained in spinal palpation and wouldn't dream of suggesting or feel qualified to do such a thing to a client let alone to a complete stranger even with putting my hands on.
_________________________
Gavin King
www.SHIKON.COM
Follow me on twitter @taichigav

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#426868 - 05/02/10 04:05 PM Re: Back pain [Re: Gavin]
Cord Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/13/05
Posts: 11399
Loc: Cambridge UK.
Oh dear frown My foam roller comment was facetious, and in focussing on it, you have rather missed the point of the whole exemplar.

I have no doubt in your abilities Gav, and am glad that you go from strength to strength in a field that I too excelled in.

Are you happy to acknowledge that different therapists and medical practitioners often disagree and use their own experience to develop their treatent philosophies, and dont need to dig at one another in an effort to present their thoughts?

Lone Fox has two well presented plausible paths to choose from, and he is free to ignore either or both for that matter.

*edited as I sounded more cobby than what I was trying to convey.



Edited by Cord (05/02/10 04:35 PM)
_________________________
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