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#426546 - 04/21/10 02:18 PM Joining The ITF
mcmillintkd Offline
Member

Registered: 06/21/06
Posts: 88
I belong to an independent Chang Hon group. I am completely satisfied with group that I belong to. I have friends that have left due to changes in life and have joined one or another of the ITFs. They still belong to the group that I belong to but train and test with the ITF since we do not have a school in their areas. I get to train a couple of times a month with both. Their respected instructors have invited me to test for my 2nd dan with them (I am 2nd dan with the group I am with). They each tell me that I can improve my future "prospects" by being a member of the ITF. The question I have is should I join the ITF? I am not stating which two different ITFs that we are talking about because I want do not want to poison the well so to speak.

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#426549 - 04/21/10 04:35 PM Re: Joining The ITF [Re: mcmillintkd]
Prizewriter Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 10/23/05
Posts: 2573
Without wanting to sound too cynical, the question I would ask is: If I joined the ITF, who does it benefit most, me or them (the ITF)?

Are these ITF instructors going to be asking for something from you, such as to represent them at competitions, take classes etc....? Also, are they using an established member of an independent club as a gateway in to that club? I mean, if you grade with the ITF, will other people in your club follow suit?

As I said, sorry to sound cynical but 90% of martial arts instructors I've met would only do something if it benefits themselves in some way. It may benefit someone else, but sometimes that is neither here nor there.
_________________________
"Let your food be your medicine, and your medicine be your food" Hippocrates.

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#426552 - 04/21/10 07:47 PM Re: Joining The ITF [Re: Prizewriter]
VDJ Offline
Veteran

Registered: 05/09/05
Posts: 1672
I'm pretty sure that the 2 you're speaking of are ITF-V & ITF-NK, I don't see this very frequently with ITF-C. Prizewriter makes a good point, how does it benefit you and not the org? Is it important to you to have a certificate from one of them? as PW asks, will you be asked to represent them in some way or are they just looking toincrease their #'s. ITF-V is in some upheaval at present due to losing their president GM Tran in the Haiti EQ. I personally would not entertain join ITF-NK because well, North Korea. I don't care what they say, it is an extension of that regime! Personally, if I were to join one of them it would be ITF-C only because of the people I know within the org have been so good to me.

VDJ

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#426554 - 04/21/10 10:00 PM Re: Joining The ITF [Re: VDJ]
ITFunity Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/15/06
Posts: 2053
Originally Posted By: VDJ
ITF-V is in some upheaval at present due to losing their president GM Tran in the Haiti EQ. I personally would not entertain join ITF-NK because well, North Korea. I don't care what they say, it is an extension of that regime! Personally, if I were to join one of them it would be ITF-C only because of the people I know within the org have been so good to me. VDJ
A bit off topic, but please let me stray.
I think the ITF-V has been run as a democratic org, following set rules & regs. I hope that they follow this pattern & will weather the loss of a great TKD leader, GM Tran. There may be a contested election at the next Congress & hopefully they will be stronger for it.
As far as NK goes, they have exerted control & influence over the ITF since the 80s. What makes it different now & why would it matter in 2010, when it did not matter to so many for 30 years? The ITF was most likely saved by the support NK gave it. Just like the WTF was made so strong with the support they got from SK.
Joing the ITF-C is equally a viable alternative, as they are lead by the Founder's son, who is in a unique position to follow closely his father's footsteps, while also avoiding some of the mistakes he saw his fahter make, up close & peronsal

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#426555 - 04/21/10 10:07 PM Re: Joining The ITF [Re: ITFunity]
VDJ Offline
Veteran

Registered: 05/09/05
Posts: 1672
"As far as NK goes, they have exerted control & influence over the ITF since the 80s. What makes it different now & why would it matter in 2010, when it did not matter to so many for 30 years?"

The difference now in 2010 is that you have 2 other like orgs that are not influenced (though ITF-V has involvment with considering a merge) or controlled by NK.

VDJ

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#426556 - 04/21/10 10:13 PM Re: Joining The ITF [Re: mcmillintkd]
ITFunity Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/15/06
Posts: 2053
Originally Posted By: mcmillintkd
1) Their respected instructors have invited me to test for my 2nd dan with them (I am 2nd dan with the group I am with).
2) They each tell me that I can improve my future "prospects" by being a member of the ITF.
3) The question I have is should I join the ITF?
My 1st comment would be in response to #1 above. You are a 2nd Dan. So I would suggest working with them to get you ready for 3rd Dan when your time is in & you have grasped the requirements of the org. If anything, they should help you do a Dan transfer, which should be easy to do, since a 2nd Dan is not a high dan, which is more complicated with students transfering in.
As to point #2, I would ask them to clarify how your future "prospects" would be improved. Then judge & evaluate their responses.
Finally when one looks to join a group, they must decide what benefits are in it for you, the prospective member. In other words, what can membership in that group offer you. There are 3 basic things that one gets from a MA org. One is certification. The next is access to knowledge, information & training with seniors. Finally membership can afford you the opportunity to participate in events, like camps, training, seminars, umpire & instructor courses & the big one, competition, local, regional, national & international, as well as world championships. It would be awesome for competitors to have the opportunity & chance to compete this year in SK at the ITF-C WCs or next year at the ITF-NK WCs in NK. That is so cool. The ITF-V will host their's in New Zealand, which is not a bad place to travel to for a WCs either!

So when you look at the benefits, you see that most tournaments & events, like training, camps, seminars etc are usually open to all or many, as they wish to increase revenue & of course offer an opportunity for outsiders to see benefits of joing an org. So really all you would miss is certification & the WCs, as you need a certificate for that.

So you the prospective member must weigh the costs of joining to see if it is worth it. I also would consider the local leaders of the groups, as those are the faces & personalities that you may work with the most, so it helps if that is a good fit.
Good luck with whatever you decide

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#426558 - 04/21/10 10:16 PM Re: Joining The ITF [Re: VDJ]
ITFunity Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/15/06
Posts: 2053
Originally Posted By: VDJ
"As far as NK goes, they have exerted control & influence over the ITF since the 80s. What makes it different now & why would it matter in 2010, when it did not matter to so many for 30 years?"
The difference now in 2010 is that you have 2 other like orgs that are not influenced (though ITF-V has involvment with considering a merge) or controlled by NK. VDJ
Good points. But the ITF-NK is the largest of the 3 groups & most probably holds the most weight, as they were the ones knocking on the IOC door & in merger talks with the WTF. They also have the most seniors as well

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#426561 - 04/22/10 12:50 AM Re: Joining The ITF [Re: ITFunity]
TaekwonDoFan Offline
Member

Registered: 01/23/10
Posts: 271
Originally Posted By: ITFunity
Good points. But the ITF-NK is the largest of the 3 groups & most probably holds the most weight, as they were the ones knocking on the IOC door & in merger talks with the WTF. They also have the most seniors as well


Merger with the WTF? Controlled by North Korea? Eeewwww to both.

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#426564 - 04/22/10 08:16 AM Re: Joining The ITF [Re: ITFunity]
VDJ Offline
Veteran

Registered: 05/09/05
Posts: 1672
Originally Posted By: ITFunity
Originally Posted By: VDJ
"As far as NK goes, they have exerted control & influence over the ITF since the 80s. What makes it different now & why would it matter in 2010, when it did not matter to so many for 30 years?"
The difference now in 2010 is that you have 2 other like orgs that are not influenced (though ITF-V has involvment with considering a merge) or controlled by NK. VDJ
Good points. But the ITF-NK is the largest of the 3 groups & most probably holds the most weight, as they were the ones knocking on the IOC door & in merger talks with the WTF. They also have the most seniors as well


Membership numbers aren't always the big thing. ITF-C has had more events and better infiltration to SK than has ITF-NK. ITF-NK's president has the olympic clout but we both know that sport TKD is on very shaky ground.

VDJ

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#426565 - 04/22/10 08:20 AM Re: Joining The ITF [Re: TaekwonDoFan]
VDJ Offline
Veteran

Registered: 05/09/05
Posts: 1672
Originally Posted By: TaekwonDoFan
Originally Posted By: ITFunity
Good points. But the ITF-NK is the largest of the 3 groups & most probably holds the most weight, as they were the ones knocking on the IOC door & in merger talks with the WTF. They also have the most seniors as well


Merger with the WTF? Controlled by North Korea? Eeewwww to both.



He didn't say that it would be controlled by NK, just that they have had the most success in discussions to get ITF members to be able to compete jointly at the olympics.

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#426576 - 04/22/10 12:29 PM Re: Joining The ITF [Re: TaekwonDoFan]
ITFunity Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/15/06
Posts: 2053
Just to be clear here, the ITF-NK is controlled & governed by a written constitution, policies & by-laws. It has an Executive Bd that makes the day to day decisions as well as a Congess (world body made up of member nations) that meets once a year to decide by democratic vote the course & direction of their ITF in an open & fairly transparent process.
Does anyone really think that GMs Rhee Ki Ha & Park Jong Soo, proud south Koreans & the 80+ member nations that make up the ITF-NK are willing participants in an org controlled by NK?
All 3 ITFs are run in a similiar fashion.
Only the ITF-NK, led by Prof Chang Ung, PhD, a Member of the IOC has the support & participation of NK. NK continues to offer financial monies for the continued running of that ITF. Since it is also involved in a sensitive political position, it also helps add a certain amount of political clout as well.


Edited by ITFunity (04/22/10 12:31 PM)

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#426577 - 04/22/10 12:42 PM Re: Joining The ITF [Re: VDJ]
ITFunity Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/15/06
Posts: 2053
Originally Posted By: VDJ
Membership numbers aren't always the big thing. ITF-C has had more events and better infiltration to SK than has ITF-NK. ITF-NK's president has the olympic clout but we both know that sport TKD is on very shaky ground. VDJ
I am not sure how you can say this. While I have no horse in this race, it is clear that the ITF-C has not even been able to hold WCs at the regular 2 year intervals, since they broke away in 2002. One WC in 2004, then 1 in 2007, with another one this year in 2010. With 2 of the 3 in SK, that is a major feat. However they now have to hold the Jr WCs with the regular WCs. Even the ITF-V has followed this trend or may have even started it. Back in England in 2007, the ITF-C also had to hold an open Gup WCs at the already combined Jr & WCs to garner the needed funds to support the WCs.
So I am not sure of the basis for your assertion

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#426582 - 04/22/10 09:46 PM Re: Joining The ITF [Re: ITFunity]
VDJ Offline
Veteran

Registered: 05/09/05
Posts: 1672
Nor do I have a horse in the race but you have already answered your own question. True that they may not have had annual WC's though it is my opinion they maybe focusing on aspects other than competition (seminars and the like). But as you say, 2 of their 3 have been in SK. They also have been successful in establishing an INO in SK. How big is that where 99.9% (figuretively not factually) don't even acknowledge the General as influential let alone crediting him as the founder (how many Kukki stylist claim that the art is 2, 5 or even 10 thousand years old)? Now I know there has been some goodwill events where the NK team has come in and done some demos, but ITF-C is actually spreading Chang Hon in the Kukkiwons back yard. You have to give them their props!

VDJ

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#426596 - 04/23/10 05:33 PM Re: Joining The ITF [Re: ITFunity]
flynch Offline
Member

Registered: 09/04/07
Posts: 265
Originally Posted By: ITFunity
Just to be clear here, the ITF-NK is controlled & governed by a written constitution, policies & by-laws. It has an Executive Bd that makes the day to day decisions as well as a Congess (world body made up of member nations) that meets once a year to decide by democratic vote the course & direction of their ITF in an open & fairly transparent process.
Does anyone really think that GMs Rhee Ki Ha & Park Jong Soo, proud south Koreans & the 80+ member nations that make up the ITF-NK are willing participants in an org controlled by NK?
All 3 ITFs are run in a similiar fashion.
Only the ITF-NK, led by Prof Chang Ung, PhD, a Member of the IOC has the support & participation of NK. NK continues to offer financial monies for the continued running of that ITF. Since it is also involved in a sensitive political position, it also helps add a certain amount of political clout as well.


I'm sorry for actually saying this but I have to question whether you actually believe the first part of your post.

And my answer to the later questions is yes they are willing to be controlled by and associated with NK.

So they are led by and take money from NK but you are trying to imply that some how they are a democratic orginization.

I was shocked by your post.

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#426598 - 04/23/10 06:03 PM Re: Joining The ITF [Re: TaekwonDoFan]
flynch Offline
Member

Registered: 09/04/07
Posts: 265
Originally Posted By: TaekwonDoFan
Originally Posted By: ITFunity
Good points. But the ITF-NK is the largest of the 3 groups & most probably holds the most weight, as they were the ones knocking on the IOC door & in merger talks with the WTF. They also have the most seniors as well


Merger with the WTF? Controlled by North Korea? Eeewwww to both.


The only thing to do would be to run and hide. Maybe join a Shotokan clubat least it is the origins/backbone of Tae Kwon Do

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#426599 - 04/23/10 09:25 PM Re: Joining The ITF [Re: VDJ]
ITFunity Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/15/06
Posts: 2053
Originally Posted By: VDJ
Nor do I have a horse in the race but you have already answered your own question. True that they may not have had annual WC's though it is my opinion they maybe focusing on aspects other than competition (seminars and the like). But as you say, 2 of their 3 have been in SK. They also have been successful in establishing an INO in SK. How big is that where 99.9% (figuretively not factually) don't even acknowledge the General as influential let alone crediting him as the founder (how many Kukki stylist claim that the art is 2, 5 or even 10 thousand years old)? Now I know there has been some goodwill events where the NK team has come in and done some demos, but ITF-C is actually spreading Chang Hon in the Kukkiwons back yard. You have to give them their props! VDJ
Yes I do give them there props. However both the ITF-V & ITF-NK have also set up branches in SK as well. I do think the ITF-C is the strongest there. ITF TKD faces many difficult challenges in SK, as it has the dirty unfair & untrue label that it is NK TKD or communist KD, both of which are 100% false. Because of the unfair label placed on Gen Choi & his follwers, few know the true history of TKD in SK. Of course they have been lied to so SK can claim in has roots in 2,000 years of Korean history. But informed people know that is a joke & a complete falsehood.
On top of this, the early successes of Gen Choi & his soldiers are also forgotten about as he, (Gen Choi) was labeled a traitor for going to the enemy NK. While I understand this & can see this point clearly from the standpoint of SKs, it is a very unfair label, as it is clear to me that Gen Choi above all was Korean & a nationalist. He did use TKD & the ITF to further his political agenda, but I still believe his goals were laudible. In any event it is very sad that so many people have been hurt by the 3 military dictators that ruled SK for so long. However now SK is not only a vibrant, rich economy, it is a democratically run Nation. There still understandably remains hard feelings towards him by many.
So hopefully all the ITFs will start the people of SK to understand that ITF TKD was & is the original TKD, formed in their Armed Forces by Gen Choi & his soldiers. IMO they are owed a debt of gratitude for the service they performed for their Country, spreading not only TKD, but parts of Korea & Korean living to all the corners of this planet.

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#426600 - 04/23/10 09:46 PM Re: Joining The ITF [Re: flynch]
ITFunity Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/15/06
Posts: 2053
Originally Posted By: flynch
I'm sorry for actually saying this but I have to question whether you actually believe the first part of your post. Yes of course I do, or I wouldn't have posted it
And my answer to the later questions is yes they are willing to be controlled by and associated with NK. I am amazed that you would post this on such an open public forum calling into question the loyalties of 2 men who devoted their whole lives to TKD. May I remind you that one of these GMs left some years before the others did, because of the NK connection Gen Choi was making/seeking. He only came back into the fold much later, when the 3 military dictators were killed or forced out & a 2nd democratically elected president was elected in open, fair & free elections in SK. A president I remind you that was given the Nobel Prize for Peace, for his out reach to NK. Some may say Gen Choi was ahead of his time, some will say that he opened the doors & windows long before President Kim Dae Jung was awarded the Nobel peace Prize for his "Sunshine Policy". I am sure history will eventually record events & credit those that deserve it. Time will tell & times are changing
So they are led by and take money from NK but you are trying to imply that some how they are a democratic orginization.
I was shocked by your post.
Well again I am not sure why somone would post such a slur against the character of 2 men who traveled the world to help TKD grow. Many went with Gen Choi around the free wolrd. Some even followed him to the socialist & communist countries as well. When the WTF & the SK govt falsely accussed them of being communist or red symphathizers, they went anyway & stood tall. I hoped they laughed at the hypocricy of the WTF & the SK govt, when they actually paid the expenses for many of these same communist countries to attend their 3 WCs, so they could finally get the needed participation of the Soviet Bloc required for Olympic sport status.
As you know, many of his loyal Korean masters had their lives & the lives of their beloved families ruined by the KCIA henchman of the brutal military dictators. Many of these men drew a line in the sand on the stand in going to NK for the 1st time. They were suppossed to go to both SK & NK, but SK denied them permission to enter SK. So Gen Choi went only to NK, & many of his loyal supporters dropped out, after he refused their advice & then their suggestion he step down, continue with his politics, but let them run the ITF free of his political ambitions.
Please remember that these wonderful men that left, left for many reasons, top among them was this was something that they could not do as KOREANS. The others on the 7th ITF Demo Team who were not Korean, did not have the same mindset, nor did they face the same pressures.

With that in mind, what you are imlying is that NK controls their ITF AND that the 80+ member countries around the world are also being controled via their connection to this ITF. I have seen videos & talked with people at the last Congress in Russia. Even though no one ran against Prof Chang Ung, he stepped out of the room, so secret paper ballots could be passed out. I was told 83 countries went to the WCs in Russia. There were 82 countires represented at the world congress meeting. Of the 82 secret ballots handed out, 81 were returned all marked for Prof Chang Ung. One was unaccounted for. No votes to oppose him. This was after a several month long open nomination period.
The ITF-NK is run by an Executive Bd & everything is run by the Congress. they have a written constitution, by laws & policies. I think that your comments them paint these 82/3 countries poorly, as it implies that they are some kind of mind numbed robots or zombies following along the orders of Kim Jong Il. Many of these countries are former Soviet Bloc nations who have little desire or any craving for a return to that type of rule.

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#426610 - 04/24/10 07:31 PM Re: Joining The ITF [Re: ITFunity]
flynch Offline
Member

Registered: 09/04/07
Posts: 265
I'm not sure if you can qualify my post as a slur against individuals that I do not personnal know. It is too bad you took it that way.

I merely point out the observed relationship between them the ITF and North Korea and you dismiss this.

Please also remember the KCIA subjected all who were associate with the ITF to a similar level of scutiny whether they went to North Korea or not.

We simply disagree on how close you can associate with one group before being influenced by them and their ideals.

We are all influenced by the people we associate with.

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#426612 - 04/24/10 11:24 PM Re: Joining The ITF [Re: flynch]
ITFunity Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/15/06
Posts: 2053
Originally Posted By: flynch
I merely point out the observed relationship between them the ITF and North Korea and you dismiss this.
I don't dismiss it at all. I do however challenge your 1 sided assessment, with another side to the issue. There are 80+ countries affiliated to the ITF-NK. I feel that you paint with such a wide brush all members & member nations with that wide stroke. There is 1 country still in a technical state of war with NK, SK. Even SK has an NGB that is affiliated to the ITF-NK. However there are some 190+ member nations of the UN. Not all have the same relationship with NK, as does SK. In fact not all SKs feel the same way towards NK. Some want unification, some armed confrontation, some are afraid, some feel sad for the sufferring that those in NK face daily, with no hope is sight. Some of these peolpe want that sufferring to stop. However there are various different approaches to how to make this needless sufferring to end. Some approaches are hard line, some have a softer approach. SK had 3 center left leaders who tried a softer approach than the harder approach now taken by their current center right govt.
I honestly do not know the best approach.
I do think that not all countries have the same relationship with NK, that SK does. Nor do many people around the world face the harsh realities that SK & NK face with each other.
My point is that just because SK & NK have the situation that they do, that should not be the vantage point that all ITF members should hold.
There are only 2 people who draw pensions from the ITF-NK. This small amount of a stipend is paid for by certificate fee surcharges put in place in the late 1980s, after a sizeable donation by a wealthy Korean business man who lived in Japan, donated to the ITF for such a purpose. There men deseve this small token of appreciation IMHO


Edited by ITFunity (04/24/10 11:26 PM)

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#426613 - 04/24/10 11:30 PM Re: Joining The ITF [Re: flynch]
ITFunity Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/15/06
Posts: 2053
Originally Posted By: flynch
Please also remember the KCIA subjected all who were associate with the ITF to a similar level of scutiny whether they went to North Korea or not. I disagree with this assessment. I think there is little doubt that the level of scrutiny was much higher for those Koreans who went to NK & for even those that went there more often than the others.

We simply disagree on how close you can associate with one group before being influenced by them and their ideals.
We are all influenced by the people we associate with.
Yes but again your account is 1 sided. Do you not think that the NKs are influenced by the outsiders that visit their country or the outsiders that they see & the world that they see that is so different from their so very poor & meek existence when they travel outside of the hell hole they live in?
The outside world changed the Soviet Union. Western clothes, the Beatles music, rock etc. Movies that showed them what they were missing. Your assertion works both ways. While you are entitled to your opinion, you may see the glass as half empty & I may see it as half full.
Many wish the economic embargo of Cuba should be ended, as a failure for all these years, only hurting the poor people of Cuba, while others argue for increased sanctions & crackdowns to further squeeze that regime to help put internal pressure on the regime for change from within. NKs escape as often as they can into China to survive. When they bring back food & support for loved ones, they also bring back stories of the outside world.
Change is needed, change is hard, the way to change is complicated. Gen Choi was nominated for the Nobel Peace prize for his efforts. Some call him a communist, some called him a traitor, others call him a visionary, as he did things when no one else dared.
You are free to see him as you wish.
I am sure history will judge him much better than many of his detractors do at present


Edited by ITFunity (04/24/10 11:37 PM)

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#426640 - 04/26/10 05:08 PM Re: Joining The ITF [Re: VDJ]
EarlWeiss Offline
Member

Registered: 07/29/05
Posts: 322
Originally Posted By: VDJ
............. ITF-V is in some upheaval at present due to losing their president GM Tran in the Haiti EQ.

Personally, if I were to join one of them it would be ITF-C only because of the people I know within the org have been so good to me.

VDJ


Mr. DJ. I find your 2 above statements quite interesting. What have you heard that indicates an upheaval in ITF V?

Also, I thought we got along well, and I am not a member of ITF -C:)

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#426642 - 04/26/10 07:39 PM Re: Joining The ITF [Re: EarlWeiss]
ITFunity Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/15/06
Posts: 2053
Originally Posted By: EarlWeiss
Originally Posted By: VDJ
............. ITF-V is in some upheaval at present due to losing their president GM Tran in the Haiti EQ.VDJ

Mr. DJ. I find your 2 above statements quite interesting. What have you heard that indicates an upheaval in ITF V?
Yes I also have seen a very smooth transition to a new president in GM Tratenburgh, who is a very dedicated martial artists, very knowledgeable in ITF TKD & a very nice man. The only thing I was disappointed in was the cancelation of their World Cup. I would have liked to see that continue & that was the only glitch so far. But that was as I understand it, a personal investment vehicle by GM Tran & apparently they could not get the financial backing from other hosts.
I will be looking at their next election to see if it is contested or they form a coalition to keep the transition smooth, as contested can also result in a widening of the cohesiveness at times

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#426660 - 04/27/10 10:59 AM Re: Joining The ITF [Re: ITFunity]
VDJ Offline
Veteran

Registered: 05/09/05
Posts: 1672
Master Weiss,

Bad choice of words on my part, I should re-phrase and say the shock that the org had to go thru in losing its president. And yes, we do get along well and I miss coming to your dojang and training with you. My reference is more so as the states that I travel to here on the east have been very welcoming (as were you) when I visit them, probably due to the relation/friendship I have built with Mr. Malefyt.

VDJ

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#426673 - 04/27/10 03:57 PM Re: Joining The ITF [Re: mcmillintkd]
trevek Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/15/05
Posts: 3337
Loc: Poland
I haven't read all the posts here, so perhaps this has already been mentioned. A few years ago (pre-break up) I asked about joining ITF (likewise I was with an independent CH org)and was told I'd probably have to pay for all my grades again (so as 1st dan I'd have to pay for equivalent of grading upto that rank, all coloured belts). It would be worth checking if this is the case.

It might also be adviseable to ask if there are any restrictions which would be placed on you as a member of these two ITFs with regards competing, training etc.

Secondly, an interesting situation here in Poland. My local club was one of the top ITF clubs in the world (having several world champions at one time). They have actually joined up with WTF (whilst keeping their ITF status) as it allows them access to Olympics.
_________________________
See how well I block your punches with my jaw!!

Supporting everyone saying "nuts to cancer"

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#426680 - 04/27/10 08:37 PM Re: Joining The ITF [Re: trevek]
ITFunity Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/15/06
Posts: 2053
Originally Posted By: trevek
I haven't read all the posts here, so perhaps this has already been mentioned. A few years ago (pre-break up) I asked about joining ITF (likewise I was with an independent CH org)and was told I'd probably have to pay for all my grades again (so as 1st dan I'd have to pay for equivalent of grading upto that rank, all coloured belts). It would be worth checking if this is the case.
Ok I am not sure who told you this, but it might have been just a way for some local guy or regional rep to make a bunch of extra money. The policy was to have people evaluated & then join at their current rank. They may have also been accepted in with a reduced fee for that current rank, as they had already paid for it. Fees can always be negotiated. Even Gen choi in the comdo interviews that appear on VHS< DVD & the web have him saying this. Of course there was more scrutiny the higher the rank you were. But a 1st degree should have had little problem joining & have their current I Dan rank cross certified in a simple certificate exchange or transfer program.

To my understanding each of the ITFs continue this line of thinking. of course they also were always concrended with how many students a transfer would bring them, which is natural from a business standpoint. The higher you are, the more complicated the process is to come in AND have a current or next rank up certified. Higher ranks, usually are assigned to work with an ITF senior.
You can check this all out on each of the 3 ITF ebsites, as I think they all, or at least to list the procedures right up front & in the open

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#426681 - 04/27/10 08:42 PM Re: Joining The ITF [Re: trevek]
ITFunity Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/15/06
Posts: 2053
Originally Posted By: trevek
It might also be adviseable to ask if there are any restrictions which would be placed on you as a member of these two ITFs with regards competing, training etc.
Good point. I know that the ITF-V & ITF-NK have written rules pertaining to the other ITFs. While the ITF-C is much less restrictive. I also have heard that the ITF-V is sadly making it even more restrictive to even be a member of any other TKD group, which is not fair IMHO. No wonder they turned down further talks with the ITF-NK at their last congress meeting, despite their own Ex Bd, President lobbying hard for it & their own lawyers handling their legal case(s) advised them to continue to talk with the other side. Sad really IMO

Originally Posted By: trevek
Secondly, an interesting situation here in Poland. My local club was one of the top ITF clubs in the world (having several world champions at one time). They have actually joined up with WTF (whilst keeping their ITF status) as it allows them access to Olympics.
There is also another route that ITFers & non WTF members can take to get access to the Olympics. I think the announcement will be made soon

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#426685 - 04/27/10 11:49 PM Re: Joining The ITF [Re: ITFunity]
mcmillintkd Offline
Member

Registered: 06/21/06
Posts: 88
This has been a revealing thread. I am always amazed by the amount of information available. I have yet to decide exactly what I am going to do. I am going to have a discussion with the different schools and see where it will lead. Thanks.

I recognize that it is a fallacy to say that all of the ITF-NK is controlled by NK, but I understand people's hesitancy to trust anything associated with NK.

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#426689 - 04/28/10 02:18 AM Re: Joining The ITF [Re: mcmillintkd]
TaekwonDoFan Offline
Member

Registered: 01/23/10
Posts: 271
Originally Posted By: mcmillintkd
This has been a revealing thread. I am always amazed by the amount of information available. I have yet to decide exactly what I am going to do. I am going to have a discussion with the different schools and see where it will lead. Thanks.

I recognize that it is a fallacy to say that all of the ITF-NK is controlled by NK, but I understand people's hesitancy to trust anything associated with NK.


Hell, I think we should just destroy NK, so its people can be reunified with their people in the south.

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#426694 - 04/28/10 08:10 AM Re: Joining The ITF [Re: trevek]
EarlWeiss Offline
Member

Registered: 07/29/05
Posts: 322
Originally Posted By: trevek
I haven't read all the posts here, so perhaps this has already been mentioned. A few years ago (pre-break up) I asked about joining ITF (likewise I was with an independent CH org)and was told I'd probably have to pay for all my grades again (so as 1st dan I'd have to pay for equivalent of grading upto that rank, all coloured belts). It would be worth checking if this is the case.



As Unity stated. BNot true then. Not true now. ITF has not and does not even get involved with Gup gradings and certificates.

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#426702 - 04/28/10 10:08 AM Re: Joining The ITF [Re: EarlWeiss]
ITFunity Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/15/06
Posts: 2053
Originally Posted By: EarlWeiss
As Unity stated. BNot true then. Not true now. ITF has not and does not even get involved with Gup gradings and certificates.
Thats right, all the ITF ever did at 1 point was sell generic blank gup certificates to instructors that did not have their own or didn't want to use their own. They never tracked the issuance of gup certs. Sounds like you met up with someone who wanted to make a quick buck from you. The ITF websites can all be checked for this relevent info & now via the internet anyone can e-mail direct & ask pointed & specific questions to clarify any point on transfering into the org

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#426703 - 04/28/10 10:16 AM Re: Joining The ITF [Re: TaekwonDoFan]
ITFunity Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/15/06
Posts: 2053
Originally Posted By: TaekwonDoFan
Hell, I think we should just destroy NK, so its people can be reunified with their people in the south.

Well I am sure that some people around the world advocate this position, I am sure far too many innocent people who be killed & harmed, which will make reunification with the south so much more difficult. Sad reality is that this may happen as tensions are so high & relations not good at the moment, with NK being suspected of sinking a SK Navy ship last month.
Many experts advocate a slow opening up with NK, so the very wide differences from them & SK can be bridged a little better. They look at all the problems with east & west Germany faced & have still not fully overcome yet, when they reunited.
So this is & will be a very difficult task, with no real easy answers, sadly people suffer each & every day, family members die daily, never seeing each other since the unfair division

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#426707 - 04/28/10 10:32 AM Re: Joining The ITF [Re: mcmillintkd]
ITFunity Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/15/06
Posts: 2053
Originally Posted By: mcmillintkd
I recognize that it is a fallacy to say that all of the ITF-NK is controlled by NK, but I understand people's hesitancy to trust anything associated with NK.

Don't get me wrong, the president of the ITF-NK, while a very educated, talented man, speaking several languages, while also being a respected Member of the IOC, is also a NK. As such, it makes sense that he has to answer to some respect to their govt. I am sure that he listens to their direction & directions. However he is 1 voice, although the president, that position has just 1 voice & the powers are shaped, defined & limited by a written constitution, policy & by-laws.
The ITF-NK is a democratically run organization. I would venture to say that it may be more democratically run now, then the ITF was under Gen Choi, as most know Gen Choi ran the show. few bucked him. Do you think that Prof Chang Ung has that same power & mystique that the (principle) founder of TKD held?
If people think this, then please offer concrete examples to back up your assertions!
I will offer one: GM Hwang Kwang Sung stated he resigned his position as both Secty Genl & Chair of the ITF/WTF Merger Committee. He stated publicly that Prof Chang Ung was not following Gen Choi merger instructions that he left them. So he went public & took that action.
However that was Committee work done as a group impowered to talk with the other side, representing the ITF. Any results, would have had to be still approved by the Congress.

I try my best to call it as I see it. This is why I do it the way I do, so as to not cloud the message. I have no horse in this race. However it is clear that all the mudslinging that occurred around the last year of Gen Choi's life, with his son breaking away, then his passing & a further split, should stop. When one truly examines that mud from a neutral, unbiased position, looking for the truth, instead of trying to prove a point from a partisian position as member or supporter of a specific group, one will see the mud has dried & most of the dust has blown away & little of what was said back then, is relevent now.
There is little reason to keep us apart today, other than some peoples quest for power, money & ego. However these 3 items, even if limited to a few, is so powerful, that it is very difficult to overcome. Instead of coming together, I see more people either going to another side, like a different ITF, or a ITF like org, or just going independent.
The future of the ITF imho is bleak. Before long we will become so small, so fractured, that we will be even less relevent than we are today. Most of it is Gen Choi's fault, for using TKD & his ITF they way he did. While his motivation may have been noble, it was bad for the ITF imho

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#426918 - 05/03/10 08:47 PM Re: Joining The ITF [Re: mcmillintkd]
StuartA Offline
Member

Registered: 07/27/06
Posts: 443
Originally Posted By: mcmillintkd
Their respected instructors have invited me to test for my 2nd dan with them (I am 2nd dan with the group I am with).

Why should you have to test for something you already have and pay for the priviledge!

Stuart
_________________________
"Ch'ang Hon Taekwon-do Hae Sul"

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#426924 - 05/03/10 10:15 PM Re: Joining The ITF [Re: StuartA]
TaekwonDoFan Offline
Member

Registered: 01/23/10
Posts: 271
Originally Posted By: StuartA
Originally Posted By: mcmillintkd
Their respected instructors have invited me to test for my 2nd dan with them (I am 2nd dan with the group I am with).

Why should you have to test for something you already have and pay for the priviledge!


So he can pay money, money, money. The one thing about TKD is that the masters love money.

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#427048 - 05/08/10 01:53 PM Re: Joining The ITF [Re: TaekwonDoFan]
flynch Offline
Member

Registered: 09/04/07
Posts: 265
Well if one of those individuals I was accussed of slurring sent a letter terminating his relationship with ITF-NK because he agreed with the observations I had pointed out and said he wished he should have done that a long time ago.

What if he showed you the letter?

Would you still accuss me of making a slur against his name?

How would you feel about the orgainization?

How would you feel about the country?

What if anything would it say about the one who remains?

Which action shows proper character to be blindly loyal to an individual or simply be true to proper ideals which came about with out politics

Of course this is just a hypothetical question.

Better yet maybe TKD is not a religion or a cult but simply a martial arts which helps people trian their body and build strong character so they can defend themselves.

Those goals are lofty enough for humans why not perfect them before moving on.


Edited by flynch (05/08/10 01:57 PM)

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#427051 - 05/08/10 02:59 PM Re: Joining The ITF [Re: flynch]
ITFunity Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/15/06
Posts: 2053
Sir with all due respect I think you are looking at this a little too personal.
The ITF was always a democratic organization that was not always run democratically.
The ITF-NK or the ITF led by Prof Chang Ung, a NK & a Member of the IOC, was reportedly picked by Gen Choi to succeed him. Now we don't have to argue whether or not Gen Choi really picked him or did so with a fully free mind. To me & the court in Austria has said it doesn't matter. Why does it not matter?
Simple: The ITF is a democratic run organization that had/has a procedure in place to determine the successor. That is/was the Sr VP takes over till the Congress which then votes in a new president.
This is exactly what happened, as the Sr VP, a federal politician & ITF TKD BB took over. The problem occurred when a further split happened, as a group did not want to wait for the Congress.

The split was a very large group, including the majority of seniors & national registered delegates that were in place when Gen Choi died. This group has come to be known popularly as the ITF-NK or the ITF led by Prof Chang Ung as their president. This group, even though they did not follow the ITF's constitution & succession procedures that it mandated, formed their own group to follow the wishes of their teacher & leader, Gen Choi. (I make no personal comment on the validity of their personal thoughts).

Now you say that no one should belong to this ITF-NK, because of their involvement with NK & the support NK gives to them, since the early 1980s & the control that they get for that support, also since the 1980s. That is fine, as that is your feelings, or personal viewpoint or opinion.

But what does that mean? Does it mean that anyone who is a member is a communist? Or they support Kim Jong Il? That they are traitors? Enemies of democracy? Not true martial artists?

Really what are you trying to say?

Should all people around the world, deal with NK the way that SK does?
Or should all the people around the world deal with NK the way this new center right govt in SK does, which is to take a hard line approach to NK? Or should it be the way the US deals with NK?
Not all people around the world have the same relationship with NK that SK & south Koreans do. In fact, not all south Koreans want to deal with NK in 100% solidarity of opinion & approach or policy, do they?

So to me, the ITF-NK is a MA org. It has an Ex Bd, various committees & a constitution, with its congress meeting annually. Apparetnly their world wide membership saw fit to re-elect their leader, not even nominating another person. I guess NK prevented people in the UK, US, Canada & all around the world in the some 80+ countries that showed up in Russia & voted back into office Prof Chang Ung. So are we to believe the NK KGB operates in a way that controls the entire membership of the ITF? A large percentage of it? Enough to control the outcome of every issue that comes to the ExBd & Congress?

So what I take from your posts is that since you share a certain viewpoint with your GM, then that viewpoint is the one that should prevail for all. So then are you saying that anyone & everyone that is a member of the ITF-NK is a communist or a supporter of the vicious NK regime? Or just un-informed, ignorant of what they are doing, selling out or pursuing some other below board agenda?

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#427053 - 05/08/10 03:28 PM Re: Joining The ITF [Re: flynch]
ITFunity Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/15/06
Posts: 2053
Originally Posted By: flynch
Well if one of those individuals I was accussed of slurring sent a letter terminating his relationship with ITF-NK because he agreed with the observations I had pointed out and said he wished he should have done that a long time ago. What if he showed you the letter?
Would you still accuss me of making a slur against his name?
I am not sure what letter you are talking about. That is not in the letter I read. I read that he resigned from his positions with the org. he is doing so to be able to be a neutral leader in working with a big project for the TKD world. If he remained as an official in 1 group, the other ITF groups, Chang Hon & independent TKD groups may hesitate to take steps forward that can make a huge difference in the TKD sports world

Originally Posted By: flynch
How would you feel about the orgainization?
I feel the same way I always did. Gen Choi used TKD & the ITF for his political agenda. Before he died, another large group broke away from his leadership, in part strongly motivated by his continued use of TKD & their ITF for his political agenda. This was not the 1st time that this happened, as it happened back in 1990, when another large group broke away for similiar reasons, as did the vast majority of his loyal south Korean masters that left since the late 70s & early 80s. Now here is a question for you: those Korean masters that left in the late 1970s, where they any more patriotic than those Korean masters that left in the early 1980s? Were the ones who left 1st smarter than those who left later?

Originally Posted By: flynch
How would you feel about the country?
The same way I always have. It is probably the worst regime on our planet. People suffer for no good reason. I feel for the country & its people. I support anything that helps them open their eyes to change, including having westerners go there for TKD & other exchanges so people there can have contact with the outside world. I also support sending NKs abroad so they can see how much they are missing & how bad they have it. These things help change happen, but in the despotic regime of near total control, change is very hard. I am neither an expert on how to effect change in the most effective & efficient way, nor am I a politician, nor do I think anyone knows what path is really the best. Maybe a full scale invasion & occuppation is needed. Maybe you have some ideas

Originally Posted By: flynch
What if anything would it say about the one who remains?
I am not sure. I am also not sure it is my place to say anything. What I can & will say is that this person has dedicated his whole life to TKD. The world & SK in particular owes him a debt of gratitude. I will also say that he & others, did not deserve the attacks that they became subjected to since the early 1970s, when they went at 1st to eastern Europe & the Soviet Bloc nations, the same nations the WTF had SK pay the expenses to come to the WTF WCs when they needed to make inroads to these communist & socialist countries in order to get Olympic sport status. I would say that this man is brave, possibly braver in some way, than all the others, as he stuck it out, despite the ever increasing politcal pressure from the KCIA at the behest of the SK military dictators. I would also probably want to thank him for not only his life of service to TKD, but for sticking it out & making sure his influence & guidance is shared by the others in the group

Originally Posted By: flynch
Which action shows proper character to be blindly loyal to an individual or simply be true to proper ideals which came about with out politics Of course this is just a hypothetical question. Better yet maybe TKD is not a religion or a cult but simply a martial arts which helps people trian their body and build strong character so they can defend themselves. Those goals are lofty enough for humans why not perfect them before moving on.
Of course & it pre-supposses or presumes that your characterzation is true & fair. I am sure that history will view Gen Choi in a very positive light. I can make an arguement that he was a visionary. He did things in NK & with NK & for the north Korean people long before any other south Korean did. He went there 21 years before the SK president that won the Nobel Peace Prize for his sunshine policy. We I can make an arguement that Gen Choi started opening the doors & windows to 1st let the SunShine in! You do know he was nominated for a Nobel Peace Prize, don't you?

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