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#426703 - 04/28/10 10:16 AM Re: Joining The ITF [Re: TaekwonDoFan]
ITFunity Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/15/06
Posts: 2053
Originally Posted By: TaekwonDoFan
Hell, I think we should just destroy NK, so its people can be reunified with their people in the south.

Well I am sure that some people around the world advocate this position, I am sure far too many innocent people who be killed & harmed, which will make reunification with the south so much more difficult. Sad reality is that this may happen as tensions are so high & relations not good at the moment, with NK being suspected of sinking a SK Navy ship last month.
Many experts advocate a slow opening up with NK, so the very wide differences from them & SK can be bridged a little better. They look at all the problems with east & west Germany faced & have still not fully overcome yet, when they reunited.
So this is & will be a very difficult task, with no real easy answers, sadly people suffer each & every day, family members die daily, never seeing each other since the unfair division

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#426707 - 04/28/10 10:32 AM Re: Joining The ITF [Re: mcmillintkd]
ITFunity Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/15/06
Posts: 2053
Originally Posted By: mcmillintkd
I recognize that it is a fallacy to say that all of the ITF-NK is controlled by NK, but I understand people's hesitancy to trust anything associated with NK.

Don't get me wrong, the president of the ITF-NK, while a very educated, talented man, speaking several languages, while also being a respected Member of the IOC, is also a NK. As such, it makes sense that he has to answer to some respect to their govt. I am sure that he listens to their direction & directions. However he is 1 voice, although the president, that position has just 1 voice & the powers are shaped, defined & limited by a written constitution, policy & by-laws.
The ITF-NK is a democratically run organization. I would venture to say that it may be more democratically run now, then the ITF was under Gen Choi, as most know Gen Choi ran the show. few bucked him. Do you think that Prof Chang Ung has that same power & mystique that the (principle) founder of TKD held?
If people think this, then please offer concrete examples to back up your assertions!
I will offer one: GM Hwang Kwang Sung stated he resigned his position as both Secty Genl & Chair of the ITF/WTF Merger Committee. He stated publicly that Prof Chang Ung was not following Gen Choi merger instructions that he left them. So he went public & took that action.
However that was Committee work done as a group impowered to talk with the other side, representing the ITF. Any results, would have had to be still approved by the Congress.

I try my best to call it as I see it. This is why I do it the way I do, so as to not cloud the message. I have no horse in this race. However it is clear that all the mudslinging that occurred around the last year of Gen Choi's life, with his son breaking away, then his passing & a further split, should stop. When one truly examines that mud from a neutral, unbiased position, looking for the truth, instead of trying to prove a point from a partisian position as member or supporter of a specific group, one will see the mud has dried & most of the dust has blown away & little of what was said back then, is relevent now.
There is little reason to keep us apart today, other than some peoples quest for power, money & ego. However these 3 items, even if limited to a few, is so powerful, that it is very difficult to overcome. Instead of coming together, I see more people either going to another side, like a different ITF, or a ITF like org, or just going independent.
The future of the ITF imho is bleak. Before long we will become so small, so fractured, that we will be even less relevent than we are today. Most of it is Gen Choi's fault, for using TKD & his ITF they way he did. While his motivation may have been noble, it was bad for the ITF imho

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#426918 - 05/03/10 08:47 PM Re: Joining The ITF [Re: mcmillintkd]
StuartA Offline
Member

Registered: 07/27/06
Posts: 443
Originally Posted By: mcmillintkd
Their respected instructors have invited me to test for my 2nd dan with them (I am 2nd dan with the group I am with).

Why should you have to test for something you already have and pay for the priviledge!

Stuart
_________________________
"Ch'ang Hon Taekwon-do Hae Sul"

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#426924 - 05/03/10 10:15 PM Re: Joining The ITF [Re: StuartA]
TaekwonDoFan Offline
Member

Registered: 01/23/10
Posts: 269
Originally Posted By: StuartA
Originally Posted By: mcmillintkd
Their respected instructors have invited me to test for my 2nd dan with them (I am 2nd dan with the group I am with).

Why should you have to test for something you already have and pay for the priviledge!


So he can pay money, money, money. The one thing about TKD is that the masters love money.

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#427048 - 05/08/10 01:53 PM Re: Joining The ITF [Re: TaekwonDoFan]
flynch Offline
Member

Registered: 09/04/07
Posts: 265
Well if one of those individuals I was accussed of slurring sent a letter terminating his relationship with ITF-NK because he agreed with the observations I had pointed out and said he wished he should have done that a long time ago.

What if he showed you the letter?

Would you still accuss me of making a slur against his name?

How would you feel about the orgainization?

How would you feel about the country?

What if anything would it say about the one who remains?

Which action shows proper character to be blindly loyal to an individual or simply be true to proper ideals which came about with out politics

Of course this is just a hypothetical question.

Better yet maybe TKD is not a religion or a cult but simply a martial arts which helps people trian their body and build strong character so they can defend themselves.

Those goals are lofty enough for humans why not perfect them before moving on.


Edited by flynch (05/08/10 01:57 PM)

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#427051 - 05/08/10 02:59 PM Re: Joining The ITF [Re: flynch]
ITFunity Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/15/06
Posts: 2053
Sir with all due respect I think you are looking at this a little too personal.
The ITF was always a democratic organization that was not always run democratically.
The ITF-NK or the ITF led by Prof Chang Ung, a NK & a Member of the IOC, was reportedly picked by Gen Choi to succeed him. Now we don't have to argue whether or not Gen Choi really picked him or did so with a fully free mind. To me & the court in Austria has said it doesn't matter. Why does it not matter?
Simple: The ITF is a democratic run organization that had/has a procedure in place to determine the successor. That is/was the Sr VP takes over till the Congress which then votes in a new president.
This is exactly what happened, as the Sr VP, a federal politician & ITF TKD BB took over. The problem occurred when a further split happened, as a group did not want to wait for the Congress.

The split was a very large group, including the majority of seniors & national registered delegates that were in place when Gen Choi died. This group has come to be known popularly as the ITF-NK or the ITF led by Prof Chang Ung as their president. This group, even though they did not follow the ITF's constitution & succession procedures that it mandated, formed their own group to follow the wishes of their teacher & leader, Gen Choi. (I make no personal comment on the validity of their personal thoughts).

Now you say that no one should belong to this ITF-NK, because of their involvement with NK & the support NK gives to them, since the early 1980s & the control that they get for that support, also since the 1980s. That is fine, as that is your feelings, or personal viewpoint or opinion.

But what does that mean? Does it mean that anyone who is a member is a communist? Or they support Kim Jong Il? That they are traitors? Enemies of democracy? Not true martial artists?

Really what are you trying to say?

Should all people around the world, deal with NK the way that SK does?
Or should all the people around the world deal with NK the way this new center right govt in SK does, which is to take a hard line approach to NK? Or should it be the way the US deals with NK?
Not all people around the world have the same relationship with NK that SK & south Koreans do. In fact, not all south Koreans want to deal with NK in 100% solidarity of opinion & approach or policy, do they?

So to me, the ITF-NK is a MA org. It has an Ex Bd, various committees & a constitution, with its congress meeting annually. Apparetnly their world wide membership saw fit to re-elect their leader, not even nominating another person. I guess NK prevented people in the UK, US, Canada & all around the world in the some 80+ countries that showed up in Russia & voted back into office Prof Chang Ung. So are we to believe the NK KGB operates in a way that controls the entire membership of the ITF? A large percentage of it? Enough to control the outcome of every issue that comes to the ExBd & Congress?

So what I take from your posts is that since you share a certain viewpoint with your GM, then that viewpoint is the one that should prevail for all. So then are you saying that anyone & everyone that is a member of the ITF-NK is a communist or a supporter of the vicious NK regime? Or just un-informed, ignorant of what they are doing, selling out or pursuing some other below board agenda?

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#427053 - 05/08/10 03:28 PM Re: Joining The ITF [Re: flynch]
ITFunity Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/15/06
Posts: 2053
Originally Posted By: flynch
Well if one of those individuals I was accussed of slurring sent a letter terminating his relationship with ITF-NK because he agreed with the observations I had pointed out and said he wished he should have done that a long time ago. What if he showed you the letter?
Would you still accuss me of making a slur against his name?
I am not sure what letter you are talking about. That is not in the letter I read. I read that he resigned from his positions with the org. he is doing so to be able to be a neutral leader in working with a big project for the TKD world. If he remained as an official in 1 group, the other ITF groups, Chang Hon & independent TKD groups may hesitate to take steps forward that can make a huge difference in the TKD sports world

Originally Posted By: flynch
How would you feel about the orgainization?
I feel the same way I always did. Gen Choi used TKD & the ITF for his political agenda. Before he died, another large group broke away from his leadership, in part strongly motivated by his continued use of TKD & their ITF for his political agenda. This was not the 1st time that this happened, as it happened back in 1990, when another large group broke away for similiar reasons, as did the vast majority of his loyal south Korean masters that left since the late 70s & early 80s. Now here is a question for you: those Korean masters that left in the late 1970s, where they any more patriotic than those Korean masters that left in the early 1980s? Were the ones who left 1st smarter than those who left later?

Originally Posted By: flynch
How would you feel about the country?
The same way I always have. It is probably the worst regime on our planet. People suffer for no good reason. I feel for the country & its people. I support anything that helps them open their eyes to change, including having westerners go there for TKD & other exchanges so people there can have contact with the outside world. I also support sending NKs abroad so they can see how much they are missing & how bad they have it. These things help change happen, but in the despotic regime of near total control, change is very hard. I am neither an expert on how to effect change in the most effective & efficient way, nor am I a politician, nor do I think anyone knows what path is really the best. Maybe a full scale invasion & occuppation is needed. Maybe you have some ideas

Originally Posted By: flynch
What if anything would it say about the one who remains?
I am not sure. I am also not sure it is my place to say anything. What I can & will say is that this person has dedicated his whole life to TKD. The world & SK in particular owes him a debt of gratitude. I will also say that he & others, did not deserve the attacks that they became subjected to since the early 1970s, when they went at 1st to eastern Europe & the Soviet Bloc nations, the same nations the WTF had SK pay the expenses to come to the WTF WCs when they needed to make inroads to these communist & socialist countries in order to get Olympic sport status. I would say that this man is brave, possibly braver in some way, than all the others, as he stuck it out, despite the ever increasing politcal pressure from the KCIA at the behest of the SK military dictators. I would also probably want to thank him for not only his life of service to TKD, but for sticking it out & making sure his influence & guidance is shared by the others in the group

Originally Posted By: flynch
Which action shows proper character to be blindly loyal to an individual or simply be true to proper ideals which came about with out politics Of course this is just a hypothetical question. Better yet maybe TKD is not a religion or a cult but simply a martial arts which helps people trian their body and build strong character so they can defend themselves. Those goals are lofty enough for humans why not perfect them before moving on.
Of course & it pre-supposses or presumes that your characterzation is true & fair. I am sure that history will view Gen Choi in a very positive light. I can make an arguement that he was a visionary. He did things in NK & with NK & for the north Korean people long before any other south Korean did. He went there 21 years before the SK president that won the Nobel Peace Prize for his sunshine policy. We I can make an arguement that Gen Choi started opening the doors & windows to 1st let the SunShine in! You do know he was nominated for a Nobel Peace Prize, don't you?

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