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#426576 - 04/22/10 12:29 PM Re: Joining The ITF [Re: TaekwonDoFan]
ITFunity Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/15/06
Posts: 2053
Just to be clear here, the ITF-NK is controlled & governed by a written constitution, policies & by-laws. It has an Executive Bd that makes the day to day decisions as well as a Congess (world body made up of member nations) that meets once a year to decide by democratic vote the course & direction of their ITF in an open & fairly transparent process.
Does anyone really think that GMs Rhee Ki Ha & Park Jong Soo, proud south Koreans & the 80+ member nations that make up the ITF-NK are willing participants in an org controlled by NK?
All 3 ITFs are run in a similiar fashion.
Only the ITF-NK, led by Prof Chang Ung, PhD, a Member of the IOC has the support & participation of NK. NK continues to offer financial monies for the continued running of that ITF. Since it is also involved in a sensitive political position, it also helps add a certain amount of political clout as well.


Edited by ITFunity (04/22/10 12:31 PM)

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#426577 - 04/22/10 12:42 PM Re: Joining The ITF [Re: VDJ]
ITFunity Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/15/06
Posts: 2053
Originally Posted By: VDJ
Membership numbers aren't always the big thing. ITF-C has had more events and better infiltration to SK than has ITF-NK. ITF-NK's president has the olympic clout but we both know that sport TKD is on very shaky ground. VDJ
I am not sure how you can say this. While I have no horse in this race, it is clear that the ITF-C has not even been able to hold WCs at the regular 2 year intervals, since they broke away in 2002. One WC in 2004, then 1 in 2007, with another one this year in 2010. With 2 of the 3 in SK, that is a major feat. However they now have to hold the Jr WCs with the regular WCs. Even the ITF-V has followed this trend or may have even started it. Back in England in 2007, the ITF-C also had to hold an open Gup WCs at the already combined Jr & WCs to garner the needed funds to support the WCs.
So I am not sure of the basis for your assertion

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#426582 - 04/22/10 09:46 PM Re: Joining The ITF [Re: ITFunity]
VDJ Offline
Veteran

Registered: 05/09/05
Posts: 1674
Nor do I have a horse in the race but you have already answered your own question. True that they may not have had annual WC's though it is my opinion they maybe focusing on aspects other than competition (seminars and the like). But as you say, 2 of their 3 have been in SK. They also have been successful in establishing an INO in SK. How big is that where 99.9% (figuretively not factually) don't even acknowledge the General as influential let alone crediting him as the founder (how many Kukki stylist claim that the art is 2, 5 or even 10 thousand years old)? Now I know there has been some goodwill events where the NK team has come in and done some demos, but ITF-C is actually spreading Chang Hon in the Kukkiwons back yard. You have to give them their props!

VDJ

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#426596 - 04/23/10 05:33 PM Re: Joining The ITF [Re: ITFunity]
flynch Offline
Member

Registered: 09/04/07
Posts: 265
Originally Posted By: ITFunity
Just to be clear here, the ITF-NK is controlled & governed by a written constitution, policies & by-laws. It has an Executive Bd that makes the day to day decisions as well as a Congess (world body made up of member nations) that meets once a year to decide by democratic vote the course & direction of their ITF in an open & fairly transparent process.
Does anyone really think that GMs Rhee Ki Ha & Park Jong Soo, proud south Koreans & the 80+ member nations that make up the ITF-NK are willing participants in an org controlled by NK?
All 3 ITFs are run in a similiar fashion.
Only the ITF-NK, led by Prof Chang Ung, PhD, a Member of the IOC has the support & participation of NK. NK continues to offer financial monies for the continued running of that ITF. Since it is also involved in a sensitive political position, it also helps add a certain amount of political clout as well.


I'm sorry for actually saying this but I have to question whether you actually believe the first part of your post.

And my answer to the later questions is yes they are willing to be controlled by and associated with NK.

So they are led by and take money from NK but you are trying to imply that some how they are a democratic orginization.

I was shocked by your post.

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#426598 - 04/23/10 06:03 PM Re: Joining The ITF [Re: TaekwonDoFan]
flynch Offline
Member

Registered: 09/04/07
Posts: 265
Originally Posted By: TaekwonDoFan
Originally Posted By: ITFunity
Good points. But the ITF-NK is the largest of the 3 groups & most probably holds the most weight, as they were the ones knocking on the IOC door & in merger talks with the WTF. They also have the most seniors as well


Merger with the WTF? Controlled by North Korea? Eeewwww to both.


The only thing to do would be to run and hide. Maybe join a Shotokan clubat least it is the origins/backbone of Tae Kwon Do

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#426599 - 04/23/10 09:25 PM Re: Joining The ITF [Re: VDJ]
ITFunity Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/15/06
Posts: 2053
Originally Posted By: VDJ
Nor do I have a horse in the race but you have already answered your own question. True that they may not have had annual WC's though it is my opinion they maybe focusing on aspects other than competition (seminars and the like). But as you say, 2 of their 3 have been in SK. They also have been successful in establishing an INO in SK. How big is that where 99.9% (figuretively not factually) don't even acknowledge the General as influential let alone crediting him as the founder (how many Kukki stylist claim that the art is 2, 5 or even 10 thousand years old)? Now I know there has been some goodwill events where the NK team has come in and done some demos, but ITF-C is actually spreading Chang Hon in the Kukkiwons back yard. You have to give them their props! VDJ
Yes I do give them there props. However both the ITF-V & ITF-NK have also set up branches in SK as well. I do think the ITF-C is the strongest there. ITF TKD faces many difficult challenges in SK, as it has the dirty unfair & untrue label that it is NK TKD or communist KD, both of which are 100% false. Because of the unfair label placed on Gen Choi & his follwers, few know the true history of TKD in SK. Of course they have been lied to so SK can claim in has roots in 2,000 years of Korean history. But informed people know that is a joke & a complete falsehood.
On top of this, the early successes of Gen Choi & his soldiers are also forgotten about as he, (Gen Choi) was labeled a traitor for going to the enemy NK. While I understand this & can see this point clearly from the standpoint of SKs, it is a very unfair label, as it is clear to me that Gen Choi above all was Korean & a nationalist. He did use TKD & the ITF to further his political agenda, but I still believe his goals were laudible. In any event it is very sad that so many people have been hurt by the 3 military dictators that ruled SK for so long. However now SK is not only a vibrant, rich economy, it is a democratically run Nation. There still understandably remains hard feelings towards him by many.
So hopefully all the ITFs will start the people of SK to understand that ITF TKD was & is the original TKD, formed in their Armed Forces by Gen Choi & his soldiers. IMO they are owed a debt of gratitude for the service they performed for their Country, spreading not only TKD, but parts of Korea & Korean living to all the corners of this planet.

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#426600 - 04/23/10 09:46 PM Re: Joining The ITF [Re: flynch]
ITFunity Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/15/06
Posts: 2053
Originally Posted By: flynch
I'm sorry for actually saying this but I have to question whether you actually believe the first part of your post. Yes of course I do, or I wouldn't have posted it
And my answer to the later questions is yes they are willing to be controlled by and associated with NK. I am amazed that you would post this on such an open public forum calling into question the loyalties of 2 men who devoted their whole lives to TKD. May I remind you that one of these GMs left some years before the others did, because of the NK connection Gen Choi was making/seeking. He only came back into the fold much later, when the 3 military dictators were killed or forced out & a 2nd democratically elected president was elected in open, fair & free elections in SK. A president I remind you that was given the Nobel Prize for Peace, for his out reach to NK. Some may say Gen Choi was ahead of his time, some will say that he opened the doors & windows long before President Kim Dae Jung was awarded the Nobel peace Prize for his "Sunshine Policy". I am sure history will eventually record events & credit those that deserve it. Time will tell & times are changing
So they are led by and take money from NK but you are trying to imply that some how they are a democratic orginization.
I was shocked by your post.
Well again I am not sure why somone would post such a slur against the character of 2 men who traveled the world to help TKD grow. Many went with Gen Choi around the free wolrd. Some even followed him to the socialist & communist countries as well. When the WTF & the SK govt falsely accussed them of being communist or red symphathizers, they went anyway & stood tall. I hoped they laughed at the hypocricy of the WTF & the SK govt, when they actually paid the expenses for many of these same communist countries to attend their 3 WCs, so they could finally get the needed participation of the Soviet Bloc required for Olympic sport status.
As you know, many of his loyal Korean masters had their lives & the lives of their beloved families ruined by the KCIA henchman of the brutal military dictators. Many of these men drew a line in the sand on the stand in going to NK for the 1st time. They were suppossed to go to both SK & NK, but SK denied them permission to enter SK. So Gen Choi went only to NK, & many of his loyal supporters dropped out, after he refused their advice & then their suggestion he step down, continue with his politics, but let them run the ITF free of his political ambitions.
Please remember that these wonderful men that left, left for many reasons, top among them was this was something that they could not do as KOREANS. The others on the 7th ITF Demo Team who were not Korean, did not have the same mindset, nor did they face the same pressures.

With that in mind, what you are imlying is that NK controls their ITF AND that the 80+ member countries around the world are also being controled via their connection to this ITF. I have seen videos & talked with people at the last Congress in Russia. Even though no one ran against Prof Chang Ung, he stepped out of the room, so secret paper ballots could be passed out. I was told 83 countries went to the WCs in Russia. There were 82 countires represented at the world congress meeting. Of the 82 secret ballots handed out, 81 were returned all marked for Prof Chang Ung. One was unaccounted for. No votes to oppose him. This was after a several month long open nomination period.
The ITF-NK is run by an Executive Bd & everything is run by the Congress. they have a written constitution, by laws & policies. I think that your comments them paint these 82/3 countries poorly, as it implies that they are some kind of mind numbed robots or zombies following along the orders of Kim Jong Il. Many of these countries are former Soviet Bloc nations who have little desire or any craving for a return to that type of rule.

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#426610 - 04/24/10 07:31 PM Re: Joining The ITF [Re: ITFunity]
flynch Offline
Member

Registered: 09/04/07
Posts: 265
I'm not sure if you can qualify my post as a slur against individuals that I do not personnal know. It is too bad you took it that way.

I merely point out the observed relationship between them the ITF and North Korea and you dismiss this.

Please also remember the KCIA subjected all who were associate with the ITF to a similar level of scutiny whether they went to North Korea or not.

We simply disagree on how close you can associate with one group before being influenced by them and their ideals.

We are all influenced by the people we associate with.

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#426612 - 04/24/10 11:24 PM Re: Joining The ITF [Re: flynch]
ITFunity Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/15/06
Posts: 2053
Originally Posted By: flynch
I merely point out the observed relationship between them the ITF and North Korea and you dismiss this.
I don't dismiss it at all. I do however challenge your 1 sided assessment, with another side to the issue. There are 80+ countries affiliated to the ITF-NK. I feel that you paint with such a wide brush all members & member nations with that wide stroke. There is 1 country still in a technical state of war with NK, SK. Even SK has an NGB that is affiliated to the ITF-NK. However there are some 190+ member nations of the UN. Not all have the same relationship with NK, as does SK. In fact not all SKs feel the same way towards NK. Some want unification, some armed confrontation, some are afraid, some feel sad for the sufferring that those in NK face daily, with no hope is sight. Some of these peolpe want that sufferring to stop. However there are various different approaches to how to make this needless sufferring to end. Some approaches are hard line, some have a softer approach. SK had 3 center left leaders who tried a softer approach than the harder approach now taken by their current center right govt.
I honestly do not know the best approach.
I do think that not all countries have the same relationship with NK, that SK does. Nor do many people around the world face the harsh realities that SK & NK face with each other.
My point is that just because SK & NK have the situation that they do, that should not be the vantage point that all ITF members should hold.
There are only 2 people who draw pensions from the ITF-NK. This small amount of a stipend is paid for by certificate fee surcharges put in place in the late 1980s, after a sizeable donation by a wealthy Korean business man who lived in Japan, donated to the ITF for such a purpose. There men deseve this small token of appreciation IMHO


Edited by ITFunity (04/24/10 11:26 PM)

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#426613 - 04/24/10 11:30 PM Re: Joining The ITF [Re: flynch]
ITFunity Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/15/06
Posts: 2053
Originally Posted By: flynch
Please also remember the KCIA subjected all who were associate with the ITF to a similar level of scutiny whether they went to North Korea or not. I disagree with this assessment. I think there is little doubt that the level of scrutiny was much higher for those Koreans who went to NK & for even those that went there more often than the others.

We simply disagree on how close you can associate with one group before being influenced by them and their ideals.
We are all influenced by the people we associate with.
Yes but again your account is 1 sided. Do you not think that the NKs are influenced by the outsiders that visit their country or the outsiders that they see & the world that they see that is so different from their so very poor & meek existence when they travel outside of the hell hole they live in?
The outside world changed the Soviet Union. Western clothes, the Beatles music, rock etc. Movies that showed them what they were missing. Your assertion works both ways. While you are entitled to your opinion, you may see the glass as half empty & I may see it as half full.
Many wish the economic embargo of Cuba should be ended, as a failure for all these years, only hurting the poor people of Cuba, while others argue for increased sanctions & crackdowns to further squeeze that regime to help put internal pressure on the regime for change from within. NKs escape as often as they can into China to survive. When they bring back food & support for loved ones, they also bring back stories of the outside world.
Change is needed, change is hard, the way to change is complicated. Gen Choi was nominated for the Nobel Peace prize for his efforts. Some call him a communist, some called him a traitor, others call him a visionary, as he did things when no one else dared.
You are free to see him as you wish.
I am sure history will judge him much better than many of his detractors do at present


Edited by ITFunity (04/24/10 11:37 PM)

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