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#426306 - 04/03/10 10:32 AM How does ITF schools market themselves vs WTF?
TaekwonDoFan Offline
Member

Registered: 01/23/10
Posts: 271
I've been wondering about this for quite awhile.

WTF schools can say they're the Olympic TKD schools, and any two year old can train and go for the Olympics - that's a sure selling point for many hockey moms or TKD moms anyway.

So what do ITF schools say about that? They can't say they're Olympic, because they aren't, and, from a marketing point of view, if they said they were tougher than WTF schools, because they teach real fighting, well, that's not going to work, because everyone says they're the toughest.

So, with all due respect, how do ITF schools market themselves vis a vis WTF schools?

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#426311 - 04/03/10 02:41 PM Re: How does ITF schools market themselves vs WTF? [Re: TaekwonDoFan]
TeK9 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/22/05
Posts: 2257
Loc: Northern California, USA
All TKD schools regardless of whether they have affiliation with the WTF benefit from Olympic style TKD. Remember its a business. So all marketing is welcomed. ITF and all others benefit from free advertisement from Olympic style TKD.

Besides you gotta understand that most Olympic style schools don't just advertise sport. They advertise traditional taekwondo with pattern training, self defense, board breaking, exercise, weight loss, leadership skills building. And as an added bonus they offer Olympic style sparring, and Team training. Which is like an optional class focusing on pure competition training and sparring.

Now the real kicker is, just how much the school really focuses on patterns or sparring. But basically all schools advertise the same, they all benefit from the most popular one out there.
_________________________
"Poor is the pupil who
does not surpass his
master" - Leonardo Da
Vinci

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#426340 - 04/05/10 10:42 AM Re: How does ITF schools market themselves vs WTF? [Re: TaekwonDoFan]
Prizewriter Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 10/23/05
Posts: 2573
Tek is right, for most people TKD is TKD. Olympic coverage still does an awful lot of good for Chang Hon TKD

That said, a lot of Chang Hon schools do go with the line "We teach traditional TKD. We are not sports orientated. We teach you REAL TKD that works as a system of self defence". In other words, old fashioned TKD was a great art for beating people up if you needed to. That is what we will teach you, not just some "sport" (that is me paraphrasing what they have said, not my opinion of course!).

The ironic thing is though that most Chang Hon orgs (ITF, TAGB et al) have as many competitions, if not more, than WTF schools! Even schools who advertize themselves as "Traditional" usually have a sports section. Never underestimate the appeal of getting a shiny medal. The Chang Hon comps are broken down in to soooo many categories (gender, height, age, belt, weight etc...) that there in my experience more people leave these comps with medals than those who leave without a medal.

So many Chang Hon schools market themselves as traditional-non-sports-orientated-TKD-schools-that-actually-do-sports-anyway-but-they-pretend-they-don't!
_________________________
"Let your food be your medicine, and your medicine be your food" Hippocrates.

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#426341 - 04/05/10 10:49 AM Re: How does ITF schools market themselves vs WTF? [Re: Prizewriter]
TaekwonDoFan Offline
Member

Registered: 01/23/10
Posts: 271
I see. Thanks for the input, guys. smile

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#426351 - 04/05/10 08:11 PM Re: How does ITF schools market themselves vs WTF? [Re: TaekwonDoFan]
TeK9 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/22/05
Posts: 2257
Loc: Northern California, USA
I started out in Moo Duk Kwan TKD/TSD. We trained the "traditional" way with focus on patterns and self defense. We did sparring and board breaking as well.

However, what I really like about Olympic style TKD is it's emphasis on sparring. Understand that I really don't care for the sport and competition. However, the TRAINING, and the conditioning that you do for sparring is what really appealed to me.

You see in my original "traditional" style of TKD/TSD school I learned all the kicks and all the patterns. But when I stepped into the ring to spar. I was like a fish out of water. We basically would stand there circle each other and throw techniques at one another. We had no understanding of the game.

This in my opinion is where the real separation from Olympic style TKD and all the rest out there. The emphasis on sparring and competition is what caused the evolution of TKD thus provoking the scientific research on physiology, kinesiology, and sports psychology. It was through this research that spawned the new improved kicking and foot work techniques for which TKD is widely known for today.

You see this is where the "game" begins. It's when TKD started looking at sparring strategically. Developing attack and counter attacking tactics.

Just like the sport of boxing every attack has a counter attack. Thus every counter attack has a counter-counter attack. This is when you start developing educated fighters in TKD.

This is in actuality is the real Korean martial art. Created by Korean Masters who developed a new system from the Japanese art they learned.

In Black Belt's Magazine Herb Perez's article Will the Real Taekwondo Please Stand up. Perez states the new Korean art was made possible because of the Korean masters decided to not adhere to Japanese philosophy of one hit kill.

Not adhering to that philosophy the Koreans decided to focus their new system on sparring. Focusing on Korean philosophies and traditions.

This is why I argue that Olympic style TKD is unique to all other TKD's. It's also important to add that other schools of martial arts who's instructors claim to have added TKD as part of their curriculum is because they studied TKD for it's kicking and foot work techniques which are functional in sparring.
_________________________
"Poor is the pupil who
does not surpass his
master" - Leonardo Da
Vinci

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#426447 - 04/12/10 12:08 PM Re: How does ITF schools market themselves vs WTF? [Re: TaekwonDoFan]
EarlWeiss Offline
Member

Registered: 07/29/05
Posts: 322
Originally Posted By: TaekwonDoFan
I've been wondering about this for quite awhile.

WTF schools can say they're the Olympic TKD schools, and any two year old can train and go for the Olympics - that's a sure selling point for many hockey moms or TKD moms anyway.

So, with all due respect, how do ITF schools market themselves vis a vis WTF schools?


We don't. In over 20 years of running a school, never had someone come in hoping to be an Olympic athlete.
Perhaps they realize that only a few people in the country make it to theat level once every four years.
People choose the closest / cheapest / most convenient school.

People relocating may be interested in a school from the same org or teaching the same system.

If they asked me if I teach "Olympic TKD" I would say no. If they ask why, I would say the primary reason is sparring without allowing punching to the head creates some really bad habits.

Has Olympic TKD created a lot of publicity? Yes, but perhaps just as much bad as good when it comes to many people's view of Olympic Sparring. For the most part only people who do Olympic sparring appreciate the sport. Some like myself can appreciate the altheleticism irrespective of the negatives.

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#430804 - 11/05/10 09:58 AM Re: How does ITF schools market themselves vs WTF? [Re: EarlWeiss]
Dobbersky Offline
Peace Works!!!!
Enthusiast

Registered: 03/13/06
Posts: 913
Loc: Manchester United Kingdom
So What is the actual Differences in techniques and Poomse/Hyungs between ITF and WTF?

what percentage of techniques in the styles use hand techniques and which has "real" applications to their Forms etc?

I used to practice TSD and know that is was nothing more than Korean Shotokan with a few techniques/hyungs added to KoreaniZe the style.

Thanks

_________________________
A man is but the product of his thoughts what he thinks, he becomes.

Ken

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#430805 - 11/05/10 10:00 AM Re: How does ITF schools market themselves vs WTF? [Re: Dobbersky]
TaekwonDoFan Offline
Member

Registered: 01/23/10
Posts: 271
WTF has no punches to the head, and it has a central registry. ITF is split into several groups.

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#430807 - 11/05/10 12:10 PM Re: How does ITF schools market themselves vs WTF? [Re: TaekwonDoFan]
Prizewriter Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 10/23/05
Posts: 2573
Regarding forms... WTF forms seem to be a lot shorter than ITF forms. There are also less of them. Make of that what you will.

Some ITF forms are somewhat similar to Shotokan Kata. Others bear no resemblance to Shotokan kata.

With a few notable exceptions (like Stuart Anslow's group) there is virtually no demonstration or knowledge of applications of forms in TKD. In either WTF or ITF.
_________________________
"Let your food be your medicine, and your medicine be your food" Hippocrates.

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#430810 - 11/05/10 02:25 PM Re: How does ITF schools market themselves vs WTF? [Re: TeK9]
ITFunity Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/15/06
Posts: 2053
Originally Posted By: TeK9
This in my opinion is where the real separation from Olympic style TKD and all the rest out there. The emphasis on sparring and competition is what caused the evolution of TKD thus provoking the scientific research on physiology, kinesiology, and sports psychology. It was through this research that spawned the new improved kicking and foot work techniques for which TKD is widely known for today. You see this is where the "game" begins. It's when TKD started looking at sparring strategically. Developing attack and counter attacking tactics.
Just like the sport of boxing every attack has a counter attack. Thus every counter attack has a counter-counter attack. This is when you start developing educated fighters in TKD. This is in actuality is the real Korean martial art. Created by Korean Masters who developed a new system from the Japanese art they learned.

In Black Belt's Magazine Herb Perez's article Will the Real Taekwondo Please Stand up. Perez states the new Korean art was made possible because of the Korean masters decided to not adhere to Japanese philosophy of one hit kill. Not adhering to that philosophy the Koreans decided to focus their new system on sparring. Focusing on Korean philosophies and traditions. This is why I argue that Olympic style TKD is unique to all other TKD's. It's also important to add that other schools of martial arts who's instructors claim to have added TKD as part of their curriculum is because they studied TKD for it's kicking and foot work techniques which are functional in sparring.

This is a really good post. The article you cite is part of the work Dr. S. Capener has done on TKD's history & development. It is spot on. Dr. Capener was the 1st non-Korean to earn a PhD in Sports Science of TKD in SK. His work deserves a look & warrants several additonal looks as well IMHO!
That being said, it must be pointed out that:
1) It does not take into effect or account that the majority of Olympic TKD schools are still infused with much karate influence outside of the sports sparring aspects
2) It does not acknowledge the seperate & distinctive path that Chang Hon or ITF TKD took to get away from the same karate roots in its resepective development into a unique KMA of SD

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#430811 - 11/05/10 02:37 PM Re: How does ITF schools market themselves vs WTF? [Re: Dobbersky]
ITFunity Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/15/06
Posts: 2053

Originally Posted By: Dobbersky
So What is the actual Differences in techniques and Poomse/Hyungs between ITF and WTF?
what percentage of techniques in the styles use hand techniques and which has "real" applications to their Forms etc?
I used to practice TSD and know that is was nothing more than Korean Shotokan with a few techniques/hyungs added to KoreaniZe the style. Thanks
The differences are huge & the similarities are abundant! While that sounds like a contradiction, it is & it is not. The ITF Tuls, the Palgwe forms & the Taeguek Poomsae all contain the same basic MA movements that are found in all MAs. For instance, front punch with the forefist, front snap kick with the ball of the foot & low block with the outer forearm. Now some may call these moves different names, but they are the same. The order that they appear in the sequence may be different, but they are the same. The starting or previuos positions, chambers, folds & how they actually form or execute the technique may be different, but the end result is the same, as a punch is a punch, a kick is a kick & a low block is a low block!
Truth be told, that while all MAs have these same basics, they come to TKD via karate, plain & simple. Those that devised these sequences were trained in karate for the most part. The ITF tries to distinguish itself by it stances, unique up/down movement & how they actually perform the moves (chambers, etc.). The Kukki TKD made the Taegueks with a big emphasis on the shorter stances. However the base can be traced directly to the karate they learned. The Palgwes were officially scrapped in only a couple of years, as the KTA wanted to be more inclusive & wanted to make the new set less karate like.
The new competition forms that the WTF is coming out with, are finally unique to Korean Taekwondo IMHO
Your 2nd point can be addressed by what Gen Choi, the principle founder of Original TKD clearly stated over & over. His TKD has some 3,200 fundamental movements, with approximately 2/3rds related to the hands & only 1/3rd related to the feet. I leave the Kukki or WTF TKD students to address what their TKD has as a breakdown & basis for those claims.
Your last point is correct & applies to both ITF & WTF TKD. All TKD comes from karate roots with some minor CMAs influence, along with Korean cultural influences & preferences. However some Tangsudo seemed more comfortable with staying connected to their Japanese roots. Therefore some of their evolution did not take the same roads as the TKD groups did or go as far from the roots as others tried.


Edited by ITFunity (11/05/10 02:42 PM)

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#430812 - 11/05/10 02:47 PM Re: How does ITF schools market themselves vs WTF? [Re: Prizewriter]
ITFunity Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/15/06
Posts: 2053
Originally Posted By: Prizewriter
1) Regarding forms... WTF forms seem to be a lot shorter than ITF forms. There are also less of them. Make of that what you will.
2) Some ITF forms are somewhat similar to Shotokan Kata. Others bear no resemblance to Shotokan kata.
3) With a few notable exceptions (like Stuart Anslow's group) there is virtually no demonstration or knowledge of applications of forms in TKD. In either WTF or ITF.

I offer no opinion on your point #1 above, as I am not that informed on the sets of forms that the WTF or Kukki TKD schools use.
With respect to your point #2, do you have any comment on how similiar the Palgwe & Taegueks are to Shotokan katas?
I agree with point #3

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#430826 - 11/07/10 01:45 PM Re: How does ITF schools market themselves vs WTF? [Re: ITFunity]
Dereck Offline
Prolific

Registered: 10/04/04
Posts: 10413
Loc: Great White North
What I've found is each school is its own school; they will advertise and promote themselves how they want. The ones I'm familiar with don't even mention Olympic training or even sports for that matter. They have all discussed traditional training based on the fundamentals. And while some have had fight teams they were extracurricular and mostly for the teens should they want it; never expected or forced.

While I'm familiar with many WTF schools I actually only attended one ITF school for 3 classes; back to back. I went as a guest from an invite that I appreciated. It was hard for me to base any formal opinion on ITF schools and their inner workings. What few things I did notice different was:

1. For the ITF school, their classes were based on belt levels; this meant any age group could attend. For the WTF schools I was involved with or knew about, it was based on age with children, youth and adults a different times.

2. Patterns/Forms while different were much the same. I did not find any more lengthy then WTF, or at least not any great length for the ones I trained. The Sine Wave was different for sure and took some getting used as did the flow as I was used to WTF's more firm, stiff and strong pattern requirements.

3. Warm ups; I found rather easy and short for the ITF school; I was used to more intense and longer ones. I think this had a lot to do with the large age difference in class as compared to attending an adult only class where people can be pushed harder.

4. Application of techniques I found no different. Kick was kicking, punching was punching, blocking was blocking and so forth; it is TKD of course. And while ITF I found focused more on the fast front kick, WTF is more dominate with the power of the back leg kick. Both however practiced both but I think due to the sparring differences the front kick is more favorable in the ITF.

5. Sparring; we did not get much into this in these 3 classes but from what I have seen, it is my opinion that WTF is more full out and why punching to the face is not allowed. There is punching trained by both ITF and WTF and both punch during fighting, it is just WTF does not allow punching to the face; again my opinion as stated earlier.

6. One of the biggest things I found for difference, ITF follows "the book". I was shown it and told it was referenced quite a bit with anything you needed to know in it.

7. One of other thing. From here and talking to others, one can train at any ITF school and will find it the same as their own whereas WTF do not follow any such program with each school teaching their own syllabus.

These are based on my observations and opinions of course.

As mentioned before about each school being its own, that was never more true in the school I attended. I can't answer ITFunity's question.

Quote:
His TKD has some 3,200 fundamental movements, with approximately 2/3rds related to the hands & only 1/3rd related to the feet. I leave the Kukki or WTF TKD students to address what their TKD has as a breakdown & basis for those claims.


This is only because we did not train the same way nor did we reference stats. Our system was blended with TKD/Hapkido and heavily influenced by BJJ which we did once a week. And on sparring days many times we did MMA style sparring or even just boxing. And then one days was set aside for self defense. While kicking could be always present it wasn't the only thing nor was it the main thing taught. The whole training was based on what to do from a standing position to a take down position to a ground position. How to stop from going to the ground and if you are on the ground how to get up or if have to fight from the ground. The whole idea was to be complete by giving you the basics and then were encouraged to go elsewhere to also train to further strengthen those techniques. This seen many of us going to Judo and actually setting up a program with a Judo school to trade training amongst the students. It also seen us bringing in BJJ professors, wrestling coaches, boxing coaches and MMA fighters to further train us.

ITF and WTF are different as are many WTF different from other WTF; and possibly ITF and ITF. This is probably the only given.
_________________________
"IF I COME ... I'M BRINGING THE PAIN WITH ME"

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#432259 - 05/01/11 05:44 PM Re: How does ITF schools market themselves vs WTF? [Re: TaekwonDoFan]
trevek Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/15/05
Posts: 3337
Loc: Poland
Originally Posted By: TaekwonDoFan
I've been wondering about this for quite awhile.

WTF schools can say they're the Olympic TKD schools, and any two year old can train and go for the Olympics - that's a sure selling point for many hockey moms or TKD moms anyway.

So what do ITF schools say about that? They can't say they're Olympic, because they aren't, and, from a marketing point of view, if they said they were tougher than WTF schools, because they teach real fighting, well, that's not going to work, because everyone says they're the toughest.

So, with all due respect, how do ITF schools market themselves vis a vis WTF schools?


I'm not sure these days, but in my experience (albeit a few years ago), ITF tended to push themselves as a 'genuine martial art" created by "the founder of TKD", often making the suggestion (implicity or explicitly) that WTF were "phoney TKD" or simply "sport".

As for not being able to say they were "Olympic", my local ITF club here in Poland was/is one of the foremost clubs in international ITF compoetition (once having at least 4 ITF world champions at one time). They now also train "Olympic" style because they send people to Olympic squad. That said, I'm not sure if they teach Kukki style or just use WTF sparring.
_________________________
See how well I block your punches with my jaw!!

Supporting everyone saying "nuts to cancer"

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#432269 - 05/02/11 11:02 AM Re: How does ITF schools market themselves vs WTF? [Re: trevek]
gojuman59 Offline
Member

Registered: 04/08/11
Posts: 224
Loc: Missouri
Back in the day when I was in the ITF (USTF) we didn't even try to be like WTF. While the athleticism of the WTF competitors was unreal, it still was two people "playing footsy." Those things hanging from your shoulders are to be used.
I was very fortunate to attend several instructors courses with general Choi. When the body of work is laid out in a course like that you get the picture very clearly.
Somethings missing when sparring is reduced to feet only.
Our hands are to be used.
Maybe I've said too much. I remember the firestorms that the ITF/WTF debate used to cause in the past. I've moved on.

Mark

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#432276 - 05/02/11 03:30 PM Re: How does ITF schools market themselves vs WTF? [Re: gojuman59]
VDJ Offline
Veteran

Registered: 05/09/05
Posts: 1674
Originally Posted By: gojuman59
Back in the day when I was in the ITF (USTF) we didn't even try to be like WTF. While the athleticism of the WTF competitors was unreal, it still was two people "playing footsy." Those things hanging from your shoulders are to be used.
I was very fortunate to attend several instructors courses with general Choi. When the body of work is laid out in a course like that you get the picture very clearly.
Somethings missing when sparring is reduced to feet only.
Our hands are to be used.
Maybe I've said too much. I remember the firestorms that the ITF/WTF debate used to cause in the past. I've moved on.

Mark



You make it sound like Olympic sparring does not allow the use of the hands (or ever did). This is not accurate. Hands are not to be used to THE HEAD ONLY! Body shots have always been allowed with the hands. Yes, there is definitely an emphasis to kick more, and grated, judges have been reluctant to score body punches but they are allowed. I have always thought why Olympic sparring always was ragged upon for this rule as its the same rule that applies to Kyokushin if I'm not mistaken, punches to the body only! Now where I have been critical of Olympic sparring is the lack of actual fighting and more of playing tag (bounce, bounce, bounce, kick, KYAP and go back to bouncing) where Kyokushin was kick, kick, punch, kick, punch get bruised and kick and punch some more!

VDJ

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#432277 - 05/02/11 05:30 PM Re: How does ITF schools market themselves vs WTF? [Re: VDJ]
gojuman59 Offline
Member

Registered: 04/08/11
Posts: 224
Loc: Missouri
Thanks for setting me straight. It just always seemed to me that the hand techniques were just to shove you away so they got you in kicking range.
I certainly didn't want to stir this old debate up again. Thanks for the input and I see that I probably should have thought out my original answer better.

Mark

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