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#426306 - 04/03/10 10:32 AM How does ITF schools market themselves vs WTF?
TaekwonDoFan Offline
Member

Registered: 01/23/10
Posts: 271
I've been wondering about this for quite awhile.

WTF schools can say they're the Olympic TKD schools, and any two year old can train and go for the Olympics - that's a sure selling point for many hockey moms or TKD moms anyway.

So what do ITF schools say about that? They can't say they're Olympic, because they aren't, and, from a marketing point of view, if they said they were tougher than WTF schools, because they teach real fighting, well, that's not going to work, because everyone says they're the toughest.

So, with all due respect, how do ITF schools market themselves vis a vis WTF schools?

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#426311 - 04/03/10 02:41 PM Re: How does ITF schools market themselves vs WTF? [Re: TaekwonDoFan]
TeK9 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/22/05
Posts: 2257
Loc: Northern California, USA
All TKD schools regardless of whether they have affiliation with the WTF benefit from Olympic style TKD. Remember its a business. So all marketing is welcomed. ITF and all others benefit from free advertisement from Olympic style TKD.

Besides you gotta understand that most Olympic style schools don't just advertise sport. They advertise traditional taekwondo with pattern training, self defense, board breaking, exercise, weight loss, leadership skills building. And as an added bonus they offer Olympic style sparring, and Team training. Which is like an optional class focusing on pure competition training and sparring.

Now the real kicker is, just how much the school really focuses on patterns or sparring. But basically all schools advertise the same, they all benefit from the most popular one out there.
_________________________
"Poor is the pupil who
does not surpass his
master" - Leonardo Da
Vinci

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#426340 - 04/05/10 10:42 AM Re: How does ITF schools market themselves vs WTF? [Re: TaekwonDoFan]
Prizewriter Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 10/23/05
Posts: 2573
Tek is right, for most people TKD is TKD. Olympic coverage still does an awful lot of good for Chang Hon TKD

That said, a lot of Chang Hon schools do go with the line "We teach traditional TKD. We are not sports orientated. We teach you REAL TKD that works as a system of self defence". In other words, old fashioned TKD was a great art for beating people up if you needed to. That is what we will teach you, not just some "sport" (that is me paraphrasing what they have said, not my opinion of course!).

The ironic thing is though that most Chang Hon orgs (ITF, TAGB et al) have as many competitions, if not more, than WTF schools! Even schools who advertize themselves as "Traditional" usually have a sports section. Never underestimate the appeal of getting a shiny medal. The Chang Hon comps are broken down in to soooo many categories (gender, height, age, belt, weight etc...) that there in my experience more people leave these comps with medals than those who leave without a medal.

So many Chang Hon schools market themselves as traditional-non-sports-orientated-TKD-schools-that-actually-do-sports-anyway-but-they-pretend-they-don't!
_________________________
"Let your food be your medicine, and your medicine be your food" Hippocrates.

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#426341 - 04/05/10 10:49 AM Re: How does ITF schools market themselves vs WTF? [Re: Prizewriter]
TaekwonDoFan Offline
Member

Registered: 01/23/10
Posts: 271
I see. Thanks for the input, guys. smile

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#426351 - 04/05/10 08:11 PM Re: How does ITF schools market themselves vs WTF? [Re: TaekwonDoFan]
TeK9 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/22/05
Posts: 2257
Loc: Northern California, USA
I started out in Moo Duk Kwan TKD/TSD. We trained the "traditional" way with focus on patterns and self defense. We did sparring and board breaking as well.

However, what I really like about Olympic style TKD is it's emphasis on sparring. Understand that I really don't care for the sport and competition. However, the TRAINING, and the conditioning that you do for sparring is what really appealed to me.

You see in my original "traditional" style of TKD/TSD school I learned all the kicks and all the patterns. But when I stepped into the ring to spar. I was like a fish out of water. We basically would stand there circle each other and throw techniques at one another. We had no understanding of the game.

This in my opinion is where the real separation from Olympic style TKD and all the rest out there. The emphasis on sparring and competition is what caused the evolution of TKD thus provoking the scientific research on physiology, kinesiology, and sports psychology. It was through this research that spawned the new improved kicking and foot work techniques for which TKD is widely known for today.

You see this is where the "game" begins. It's when TKD started looking at sparring strategically. Developing attack and counter attacking tactics.

Just like the sport of boxing every attack has a counter attack. Thus every counter attack has a counter-counter attack. This is when you start developing educated fighters in TKD.

This is in actuality is the real Korean martial art. Created by Korean Masters who developed a new system from the Japanese art they learned.

In Black Belt's Magazine Herb Perez's article Will the Real Taekwondo Please Stand up. Perez states the new Korean art was made possible because of the Korean masters decided to not adhere to Japanese philosophy of one hit kill.

Not adhering to that philosophy the Koreans decided to focus their new system on sparring. Focusing on Korean philosophies and traditions.

This is why I argue that Olympic style TKD is unique to all other TKD's. It's also important to add that other schools of martial arts who's instructors claim to have added TKD as part of their curriculum is because they studied TKD for it's kicking and foot work techniques which are functional in sparring.
_________________________
"Poor is the pupil who
does not surpass his
master" - Leonardo Da
Vinci

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#426447 - 04/12/10 12:08 PM Re: How does ITF schools market themselves vs WTF? [Re: TaekwonDoFan]
EarlWeiss Offline
Member

Registered: 07/29/05
Posts: 322
Originally Posted By: TaekwonDoFan
I've been wondering about this for quite awhile.

WTF schools can say they're the Olympic TKD schools, and any two year old can train and go for the Olympics - that's a sure selling point for many hockey moms or TKD moms anyway.

So, with all due respect, how do ITF schools market themselves vis a vis WTF schools?


We don't. In over 20 years of running a school, never had someone come in hoping to be an Olympic athlete.
Perhaps they realize that only a few people in the country make it to theat level once every four years.
People choose the closest / cheapest / most convenient school.

People relocating may be interested in a school from the same org or teaching the same system.

If they asked me if I teach "Olympic TKD" I would say no. If they ask why, I would say the primary reason is sparring without allowing punching to the head creates some really bad habits.

Has Olympic TKD created a lot of publicity? Yes, but perhaps just as much bad as good when it comes to many people's view of Olympic Sparring. For the most part only people who do Olympic sparring appreciate the sport. Some like myself can appreciate the altheleticism irrespective of the negatives.

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#430804 - 11/05/10 09:58 AM Re: How does ITF schools market themselves vs WTF? [Re: EarlWeiss]
Dobbersky Offline
Peace Works!!!!
Enthusiast

Registered: 03/13/06
Posts: 913
Loc: Manchester United Kingdom
So What is the actual Differences in techniques and Poomse/Hyungs between ITF and WTF?

what percentage of techniques in the styles use hand techniques and which has "real" applications to their Forms etc?

I used to practice TSD and know that is was nothing more than Korean Shotokan with a few techniques/hyungs added to KoreaniZe the style.

Thanks

_________________________
A man is but the product of his thoughts what he thinks, he becomes.

Ken

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#430805 - 11/05/10 10:00 AM Re: How does ITF schools market themselves vs WTF? [Re: Dobbersky]
TaekwonDoFan Offline
Member

Registered: 01/23/10
Posts: 271
WTF has no punches to the head, and it has a central registry. ITF is split into several groups.

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#430807 - 11/05/10 12:10 PM Re: How does ITF schools market themselves vs WTF? [Re: TaekwonDoFan]
Prizewriter Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 10/23/05
Posts: 2573
Regarding forms... WTF forms seem to be a lot shorter than ITF forms. There are also less of them. Make of that what you will.

Some ITF forms are somewhat similar to Shotokan Kata. Others bear no resemblance to Shotokan kata.

With a few notable exceptions (like Stuart Anslow's group) there is virtually no demonstration or knowledge of applications of forms in TKD. In either WTF or ITF.
_________________________
"Let your food be your medicine, and your medicine be your food" Hippocrates.

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#430810 - 11/05/10 02:25 PM Re: How does ITF schools market themselves vs WTF? [Re: TeK9]
ITFunity Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/15/06
Posts: 2053
Originally Posted By: TeK9
This in my opinion is where the real separation from Olympic style TKD and all the rest out there. The emphasis on sparring and competition is what caused the evolution of TKD thus provoking the scientific research on physiology, kinesiology, and sports psychology. It was through this research that spawned the new improved kicking and foot work techniques for which TKD is widely known for today. You see this is where the "game" begins. It's when TKD started looking at sparring strategically. Developing attack and counter attacking tactics.
Just like the sport of boxing every attack has a counter attack. Thus every counter attack has a counter-counter attack. This is when you start developing educated fighters in TKD. This is in actuality is the real Korean martial art. Created by Korean Masters who developed a new system from the Japanese art they learned.

In Black Belt's Magazine Herb Perez's article Will the Real Taekwondo Please Stand up. Perez states the new Korean art was made possible because of the Korean masters decided to not adhere to Japanese philosophy of one hit kill. Not adhering to that philosophy the Koreans decided to focus their new system on sparring. Focusing on Korean philosophies and traditions. This is why I argue that Olympic style TKD is unique to all other TKD's. It's also important to add that other schools of martial arts who's instructors claim to have added TKD as part of their curriculum is because they studied TKD for it's kicking and foot work techniques which are functional in sparring.

This is a really good post. The article you cite is part of the work Dr. S. Capener has done on TKD's history & development. It is spot on. Dr. Capener was the 1st non-Korean to earn a PhD in Sports Science of TKD in SK. His work deserves a look & warrants several additonal looks as well IMHO!
That being said, it must be pointed out that:
1) It does not take into effect or account that the majority of Olympic TKD schools are still infused with much karate influence outside of the sports sparring aspects
2) It does not acknowledge the seperate & distinctive path that Chang Hon or ITF TKD took to get away from the same karate roots in its resepective development into a unique KMA of SD

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