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#425984 - 03/22/10 06:21 PM Re: GM CK Choi TAGB interview [Re: flynch]
trevek Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/15/05
Posts: 3337
Loc: Poland
Originally Posted By: flynch
I do not know anything about the UKTA.

I know GM CK Choi and GM Rhee still communicate about Tae Kwon Do

I hope the TAGB treat GM CK Choi properly as he just did a weeks worth of seminars in the uK for them.


UKTA is GM Rhee's organisation in UK. TAGB were a breakaway from that.

I imagine TAGB will treat GM Choi well, they aren't stupid. The matter with GM Cho was after 10 years as CI. It was also over 15 years ago.
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#425987 - 03/22/10 10:26 PM Re: GM CK Choi TAGB interview [Re: flynch]
ITFunity Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/15/06
Posts: 2053
Originally Posted By: flynch
The key with General Choi is that everyone agreed to go to both North and South Korea for Tae kwon Do. It was only at the last minute that Gen Choi made a unilateral decision to only go to North Korea against the wishes of the other Masters and then he tried to impose his will on them. He did not respect the position and opinions of the other Masters. General Choi basically broke most of the Tenents that he had been pushing for years.
From my understanding the ITF was suppossed to go to both Koreas, but SK deined them permission to come. Was that not the case Mr. Flynch?
It was then that Gen Choi said well we have been welcomed or allowed to go to NK, so they went. Many of the loyal south Korean instructors living overseas found that aggreement simply not acceptable, so they did not go & started to drop out of the ITF.

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#425989 - 03/22/10 11:35 PM Re: GM CK Choi TAGB interview [Re: ITFunity]
flynch Offline
Member

Registered: 09/04/07
Posts: 265
As always ... I was not there. So the specifics of the situation I do not know. Regardless I do not think our statements are incompatible though. The important point from where I am standing is how the original master's remember the event and how they continue to relate the experience. In adddition it is important to see beyond the single event and realize how General Choi's actions were perceived not only at the time but also how they affected the original masters and their families who were in South Korea and other places around the world.

Like a pebble dropped into a quite pool the single splash may be over in an instant but the ripples continue for a long time.

It was not just the event (that was bad enough) but the lasting results which went on for years.

These actions are still being felt to this day as you well know. Some still have no time for anything related to North Korea and others are still disturbed by the actions of the leaders of the WTF. The only thing I can say ... is that at least things remain consistant all these years later.


Edited by flynch (03/22/10 11:49 PM)

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#425990 - 03/22/10 11:43 PM Re: GM CK Choi TAGB interview [Re: trevek]
flynch Offline
Member

Registered: 09/04/07
Posts: 265
Originally Posted By: trevek

UKTA is GM Rhee's organisation in UK. TAGB were a breakaway from that.


Thanks I guess I did not put that together as I tend to be more focused on the historical personnal relationships between these Tae Kwon Do people. I must say I know little about the web of orgainizations that exist today.

My understanding is that GM Rhee was a great Tae Kwon Do man and that Mr Oliver runs a good orgainization with many competant fighters and a good, quality level of original Tae Kwon Do instuction/training.


Edited by flynch (03/22/10 11:44 PM)

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#425999 - 03/23/10 01:44 AM Re: GM CK Choi TAGB interview [Re: flynch]
ITFunity Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/15/06
Posts: 2053
Originally Posted By: flynch
As always ... I was not there. So the specifics of the situation I do not know. Regardless I do not think our statements are incompatible though.
Yes Sir & neither was I. However I think that it was you that once posted & I know I have read it elsewhere & heard it elsewhere that the original plan was to go to both Koreas. However SK denied them permission to come. But Gen. Choi felt that they must accept the invitation that NK extended. The way you just wrote it, seemed to imply, at least to me that it was NK only that Gen. Choi wanted to go. The rest of your post I agree for the most part.

As an historical note, Gen. Choi's political opponent, the brutal military dictator Gen Park Jung Hee was shot & killed at point blank range by his own KCIA director on 26 Oct. 1979, after 18 & 1/2 of his oppressive regime. Thinking the change of SK govt would open the door to Gen Choi again, who exiled himself to Canada in 1972, the height of the brutality of the regime, to Gen Choi & the ITF, just did not happen. As the new military dictator continued oppression, with events like the awful Kwang Ju massacre! Sadly things did not change much in SK till real democratic elections where held elcting the 1st civilan leader Kim Yong Sam. His successor Kim Dae Jung, who just passed away, was awarded the Nobel Peace Prize for his outreach to NK, called the Sunshine Policy. This was when TKD allowed for peaceful cultrual exchanges between the 2 Koreas starting in 2002, sadly right after Gen Choi passed away. So he never got to see the results of his dream, made possible by using TKD & the ITF as political tools to further his own political agenda that many of his loyal masters did not want to get involved with & still causes some problems today with SK
(Very complicated matters indeed)

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#426001 - 03/23/10 03:58 AM Re: GM CK Choi TAGB interview [Re: flynch]
trevek Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/15/05
Posts: 3337
Loc: Poland
Originally Posted By: flynch


My understanding is that GM Rhee was a great Tae Kwon Do man and that Mr Oliver runs a good orgainization with many competant fighters and a good, quality level of original Tae Kwon Do instuction/training.


Indeed.

It was some of those fighters (Tony Sewell, KIm Stones) who moved away and founded GTI (Global TKD International... not to be confused with GTF).

TAGB were also the main founders and movers of TKD International, a multi-style TKD organisation.
_________________________
See how well I block your punches with my jaw!!

Supporting everyone saying "nuts to cancer"

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#426010 - 03/23/10 04:16 PM Re: GM CK Choi TAGB interview [Re: trevek]
flynch Offline
Member

Registered: 09/04/07
Posts: 265
ITFUnity I appreciate your view point on the value of using TKD for political purposes but I cannot condon the General's actions.

The end does not justify the means.

I just think that we cannot look at one event in isolation and critize people's actions. I see that all too much. We have to look at the totality of the information and then still realize that we were not there and in many cases can't really understand the forces at play.

I am quite sure that the General's main goal was to go to NK but I cannot say if it was the only goal. We cannot determine if he was appeasing the other master's by agreeing to go to South Korea. In addition the way you write it makes the General sound altruistic which I would say is not necessarily so.

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#426022 - 03/24/10 06:53 AM Re: GM CK Choi TAGB interview [Re: flynch]
ITFunity Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/15/06
Posts: 2053
Originally Posted By: flynch
ITFUnity I appreciate your view point on the value of using TKD for political purposes but I cannot condon the General's actions.
Nor do I. Now these are sensitive & complex issues. As such they by the mere nature have no easy answers. I can truly understand the resentment & bitterness many can have towards General Choi for using TKD & the ITF to advance his political agenda &/or to fullfill his dream of a united homeland that he loved, especially when some of his loyal men were not political in nature, but Gen Choi was. He was a general, an ambasador, a founder of the ROK Army & director of army intelligence. So he would have a different viewpoint. others viewing his actions will of course judge his actions based in part by their own political views, or lack or ignorance of complex issues. I also fully understand that he put his most loyal men at risk, as well as their familes. I do not take issues like this lightly.

Originally Posted By: flynch
The end does not justify the means.
Yes, no & sometimes, depending on viewpoint, context etc.

Originally Posted By: flynch
I just think that we cannot look at one event in isolation and critize people's actions. I see that all too much. We have to look at the totality of the information and then still realize that we were not there and in many cases can't really understand the forces at play.
I agree & apolige if anything I said was interpeted wrongly as me being critical, as they are sensitive & complex issues

Originally Posted By: flynch
I am quite sure that the General's main goal was to go to NK but I cannot say if it was the only goal. We cannot determine if he was appeasing the other master's by agreeing to go to South Korea. Very good point, which I can not negate & must also consider!

In addition the way you write it makes the General sound altruistic which I would say is not necessarily so.
Yes I see your point.
I would also add that while I don't know if his motives were 100% altruistic, I could also make any arguement that he never should have used TKD as a tool for these, even if altruistic motives, as it was not just his TKD & his actions impacted others in a very serious way.
I can also argue that his introduction of original TKD gave NK a powerful propaganda tool, which can be negative.
Or I could argue that the same introduction did afford an opportunity for NKs, the most isolated place on the planet to have a view of the outside world by both hosting TKD people there & sending their people abroad, which can be positive.

It is an age old debate, do we isolate enemies & take a provactive stance or do we engage with our enemies & take a softer stance? Left vs right, liberal vs conserative, hawks vs doves, etc.

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