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#425779 - 03/11/10 12:03 PM The Karate Kid Remake shows whats missing in MMA
Kimo2007 Offline
Veteran

Registered: 03/31/07
Posts: 1057
If you want to get a thread started...take a shot at the MMA world!

Seriously though, this is not meant as another look into TMA vs MMA in terms of quality of fighting.

My thoughts are that watching just the preview, it reminded me what drew me to MA so many years ago. It wasn't just the ability to fight, but the way the whole art packaged itself. The Tradition, the beauty, the respect for others and the balance of the mind and soul.

Modern MMA schools, I think stripped all that away. So dedicated to what works right now, that more esoteric training and ideas are dismissed out of hand.

I was watching Jackie Chan spar in the preview and was thinking even at his age, look at him move. So few of the MMA guys I have watched can move that way, but imagine if they could, how much more dangerous would they be. (oops slipping into that fighting thing again)

But my point is that is something more to MA then just pure fighting, and when done correctly those things enhance the MA, not detract.

Just some thoughts...
_________________________
Undefeated in all of Asia!

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#425783 - 03/11/10 03:46 PM Re: The Karate Kid Remake shows whats missing in MMA [Re: Kimo2007]
Prizewriter Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 10/23/05
Posts: 2572
Someone (possibly Ames, not 100% sure) said he read an article in JAMA that contained a study relating to violent encounters outside of MA classes. The study apparently found people who studied MMA were more likely to encounter violence or get into fights outside of class compared to TMA students.

I haven't seen this study, so I can't comment on it. They study did mention that a possible reason for this was that many MMA classes lacked the philosophical framework that accompanies many TMA.

That said, there are many TMA instructors/classes/orgs that lack morality or a "good" philosophy. See the several cases of TMA instructors abusing students in their trust, or the horrible case of a 6th Dan Karate-ka who killed his own children (and apparently physically abused his step-son):

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/article4151231.ece

Another example would be (as discussed recently in the TKD forum) the corruption in the WTF.

Bear in mind too, not all philosophies taught in TMA classes are conducive to being a content, law-abiding citizen in the 21st century. I have been in TMA classes where an instructor is telling students about "the way of the warrior" and about "defending your honour". It transpired that this really meant beating up anyone who insulted you or who looked at you cross-eyed!

When it comes down to it, you can be philosophical and find meaning in almost anything. Archery, poetry, music, running, martial arts..... It comes down to the person


As a wise man once said, "It doesn't matter what you are doing, only why you are doing it." This is actually represented well in the original Karate Kid movie. The two sensei (Mr Miyagi and John Kresse, head of the Cobra-Kai) were doing much the same thing physically: punching, kicking, blocking etc... Where they really differed was in the philosophy behind their karate.
_________________________
"Let your food be your medicine, and your medicine be your food" Hippocrates.

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#425791 - 03/11/10 08:13 PM Re: The Karate Kid Remake shows whats missing in MMA [Re: Prizewriter]
TeK9 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/22/05
Posts: 2257
Loc: Northern California, USA
Kimo2007

Great points Kimo.

If you look at MA as Military arts. And then you consider what one learns in the Military. It isn't all about fighting. There is more to it than that; honor, respect, self sacrifice, many traditions.

It is easy to be convinced why philosophical and moral training should be taken out of the martial arts or in public schooling. By people with good arguments and superb vocabularies. The argument being MA is all fighting. What the student does with their knowledge is all on them and that the instructor should not be held responsible because they have n control over them. I do not agree.

If your teaching something in this case how to defend yourself by hurting someone else. Then I feel it is also the responsibility to teach them about the consequences for their actions.

One of the problems with the focus on sports and competition is that it becomes all about the winning and not about the journey. Many schools that stress sport the students focus on the end result instead on the experience. They focus on the technique alone ignoring all the mental and emotional work put forth in an effort to get to where they are.

Like teaching science without ethics.
_________________________
"Poor is the pupil who
does not surpass his
master" - Leonardo Da
Vinci

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#425792 - 03/11/10 08:20 PM Re: The Karate Kid Remake shows whats missing in MMA [Re: Prizewriter]
Zach_Zinn Offline
Veteran

Registered: 12/09/07
Posts: 1031
Loc: Olympia, WA
I think any MA can be practiced as a Budo, some people understand Budo and they don't even know they are doing Budo.

Whereas some people talk the Budo talk, but act like total )(*holes.

The problem with MMA in this regard isn't in the training or methods, it's in the marketing, the stupid tapout t shirts, and the pandering to the insecure, angry, overly competitive (yes of course there is healthy competition..but there is also definitely alot of unhealthy competition in MA) culture of testosterone filled young males.

That said, many TMA do something very similar, and it some ways do something even more insidious by instilling the kind of "i'm a warrior - RAWR" attitude that was mentioned earlier.

I remember an early formative MA experience:

We we sparring in my first Shorin Ryu dojo...the guy I was sparring was getting [censored] he couldn't hit me very often, going harder and harder etc...nothing came of it, but it went from being a spar to something more...eventually I had to kind of pin him on a wall and ask him to calm down, by this point of course my own adrenaline was pumping too...and being a oyung man myself i'm thinking about blasting him back, harder than normal dojo contact level for sure.

So after class, my teacher takes us all aside points to the kanji for "Karatedo" on the wall and says "what does this mean"...of course there are all manner of things people say, and he just says something like "no, it means...don't be an !*&hole, here or anywhere else".

Personally.. i think it is irresponsible to not teach some basic moral code if you are teaching people martial skills, it doesn't need to be preachy or constantly harped on, but there needs to be an environment where people understand the consequences of using what they are learning.


It might not matter so much with adults, but with teaching young men especially IMO it's very important. I know I have seen some schools where they are just kind of left to their own devices in this area, and the environment of the dojo suffers for it.


People like to mock the philosophical side of martial arts, but as I get older it just becomes more important to me.

Discipline, that's what it comes down to. I don't mean that in a fake, stupid way, I mean that in the sense of making sincere effort into something over a long period of time, with some humility and perserverance.

The problem with the "i want to know how to fight right now" attitude, is that it can fly in the face of the above things.


Edited by Zach_Zinn (03/11/10 08:30 PM)

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#425841 - 03/15/10 06:23 PM Re: The Karate Kid Remake shows whats missing in MMA [Re: Kimo2007]
everyone Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 01/02/07
Posts: 597
Loc: USA
I don't think MMA schools produce a different kind of person then a TMA school, they just tend to attract a different crowd. I would have no problem putting a child in either type of school. Their moral development should be taught at home.

That said, I beleive TMA does have more to offer because of those things that you point out (KIMO).


Edited by everyone (03/15/10 06:27 PM)

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#425857 - 03/16/10 01:09 PM Re: The Karate Kid Remake shows whats missing in MMA [Re: everyone]
Ronin1966 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 04/26/02
Posts: 3113
Loc: East Coast, United States
Hello everyone:

<<I don't think MMA schools produce a different kind of person then a TMA school

Whomever shows up at the door could be a student. If a school is commercial, then the question is irrelevant. However a "traditional" school will not let you or I (anybody)join simply because we "want to" and offer them money.

It takes actual time to gain acceptance, be admitted and get the training.

I think you can get a pretty easy debate over what is produced by these two antithetical (opposite) approaches and philosophies.

<<Their moral development should be taught at home.

We are not "replacing" what should occur at home! We offer an enhansement to that, and a very strict (unchangable) perspective re: consequences for inappropriate usage.

Jeff

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#425867 - 03/17/10 08:02 AM Re: The Karate Kid Remake shows whats missing in MMA [Re: Kimo2007]
Cord Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/13/05
Posts: 11399
Loc: Cambridge UK.
Originally Posted By: Kimo2007
I was watching Jackie Chan spar in the preview and was thinking even at his age, look at him move. So few of the MMA guys I have watched can move that way, but imagine if they could, how much more dangerous would they be.


You do know that Jackie Chan is NOT a TMAist, or MA'ist in any true sense of the word right? His background is Chinese Opera, and the tumbling and acrobatics inherent in that.
He has never professed to be a martial artist, and has always been at pains to point that out.

So no, you havent seen any MMAists move like him, but then, you have never seen any TMAists move like him either, unless they incorporate opera tumbling from outside of their TMA of course.

As for the rest of it, you cannot enforce fortune cookie insight through MA classes. If I wanted my kid to develop respect, lack of ego, a benevolent outlook on life, then I would be looking far away from any form of Martial art - Charitable work, volunteering, after school programmes etc.
If the kid isnt of a mindset to want to do these things, then they are not of a mindset to absorb watered down versions of these concepts from MA, they only want to go because its 'cool' or 'learning fighting'.
With that in mind, I would send them to a school which was heavy on reality and light on the philosphy, because in Judo, MMA, Muay Thai, etc, they will learn humility, and they will learn respect, instead of just talking about it.


Edited by Cord (03/17/10 08:13 AM)
_________________________
Don't let the door hit ya' where the good lord split ya'
http://cord.mybrute.com

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#425869 - 03/17/10 09:32 AM Re: The Karate Kid Remake shows whats missing in MMA [Re: Cord]
everyone Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 01/02/07
Posts: 597
Loc: USA
From: Biography and Profile of Jackie Chan
http://martialarts.about.com/od/martialartsculture/p/jackiechan.htm

The Martial Arts Background of Jackie Chan:
Much of Chan's martial arts skills came from practicing the arts while at the Chinese Opera Research Institute, headed by Master Yu Jim Yuen. However, he did eventually train specifically in Hapkido, earning his blackbelt under Grandmaster Jin Pal Kim. All told, Chan has trained in Shaolin Kung-fu, Tae Kwon Do, and Hapkido.
"He took his Hapkido seriously, practicing for hours at a time," said Kim according to article at Web-vue.com. In fact, Kim noted that Chan was one of the hardest working people he'd ever been around.

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#425875 - 03/17/10 11:40 AM Re: The Karate Kid Remake shows whats missing in MMA [Re: Cord]
Kathryn Offline
Member

Registered: 09/24/09
Posts: 262
Loc: Washington, DC
Originally Posted By: Cord
[quote=Kimo2007]
As for the rest of it, you cannot enforce fortune cookie insight through MA classes. If I wanted my kid to develop respect, lack of ego, a benevolent outlook on life, then I would be looking far away from any form of Martial art - Charitable work, volunteering, after school programmes etc.
If the kid isnt of a mindset to want to do these things, then they are not of a mindset to absorb watered down versions of these concepts from MA, they only want to go because its 'cool' or 'learning fighting'.


Cord -- it saddens me that you view it that way. But maybe some of us need to train, and others don't. All I know is that I owe a lot of my spiritual and mental development to the Japanese arts, far more so than to the philosophy classes or the sessions at church, or the hours of volunteer work.
_________________________
Be nice, until it's time to not be nice.

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#425880 - 03/17/10 12:56 PM Re: The Karate Kid Remake shows whats missing in MMA [Re: Kathryn]
Cord Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/13/05
Posts: 11399
Loc: Cambridge UK.
Originally Posted By: Kathryn
Cord -- it saddens me that you view it that way. But maybe some of us need to train, and others don't. All I know is that I owe a lot of my spiritual and mental development to the Japanese arts, far more so than to the philosophy classes or the sessions at church, or the hours of volunteer work.


My point is that Martial arts are a selfish preoccupation. Now if you want to dress it up as a journey to self enlightenment that makes you a better person, then fair enough, but for the most part, it just isn't.

Don't believe me? Go find someone who has trained 'Art X' for 20 + years, and question it.
The response you get will be defensive. They may get upset, maybe even angry.

Why? If the art has truly made them grow devoid of ego, and opened them up to spiritual enlightenment, then why do so many of them get hot uder the Gi about it?

Because, whilst they are fond of going on about how they have no ego, they do, its just that they have directed it into the art they have devoted themselves to. To question the art is to question the person, and thus the ego emerges, just as strong, if not stronger, than in many non MAists.

Gaining any skill requires dedication, practice, self awareness, the ability to overcome obsticle, and the readiness to fail repeatedly in the attempt.
That is true for everything from Karate to decorative cake making.

The trouble is that MA tends to attract people with low self confidence and a feeling they need to prove something, either to themselves or to others. Its a world of self percieved weaklings and victims, trying to change that perception of themselves.
If it works, then great, but dont kid yourself that it leads to some kind of altruism, because it doesnt. Its group therapy through nosebleeds wink

_________________________
Don't let the door hit ya' where the good lord split ya'
http://cord.mybrute.com

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