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#425856 - 03/16/10 12:56 PM "Trad. Philosophies" in ACTIONS
Ronin1966 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 04/26/02
Posts: 3116
Loc: East Coast, United States
A discussion brought up recently asked the fundamental question about "philosophical framework" attributed typically to traditional martial arts through quality instruction.

I accept the basic concept as being a truism. Without a philosophical underpinning, a framework of instruction I wonder if conflict will be too glibly sought?

My question however, how do those traditional ideas, philsophies transfer as physical actions, tangible conduct back in the "real world" for us? What would be demonstrations of those fundamental views?

Jeff

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#425863 - 03/17/10 02:42 AM Re: "Trad. Philosophies" in ACTIONS [Re: Ronin1966]
LifesFist Offline
Member

Registered: 05/27/07
Posts: 127
Loc: Above Is Heaven, Down Is Earth
Which philosophies in particular?
_________________________
Fellow Of Life

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#425865 - 03/17/10 07:16 AM Re: "Trad. Philosophies" in ACTIONS [Re: Ronin1966]
trevek Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/15/05
Posts: 3337
Loc: Poland
Hmm, interesting question,

I suppoe it depends on how much the 'philosophy' is actually taught as a philosophy. I mean, is there a philosophy to boxing and wrestling, fencing etc or is it something which just comes from being around other people and physical things you might learn in the club, on the mat etc?

I suppose several physical aspects might be picked up through training practice but not necessarily taught as philosophy (although being a part of it).

Example; keeping your temper. This might be taught as 'suppresion of ego, respect for others' etc. but it is really just a practical thing. If you start swinging just because the other guy caught you a good one, or p1ssed you off, then you'll put yourself at risk somehow. learning to keep your temper is a practical thing which can then transfer to everyday life (not driving like a suicide jockey or getting annoyed because someone else got the last packet of sweets in the shop). It also saves you engaging in a bit of road rage when the idiot in the Audi cuts infront whilst trying to overtake 4 cars on a blind bend.

This might also transfer into training yourself to show restraint until the right moment. As a philosophy, it might be taught as 'yielding' or 'non-engagement', but it is also something which allows you time to gauge and measure, before going in and doing the job, hard and fast.

An example might be a business deal, a discussion or argument. The philosophy of yielding and using the opponents strength against them can also be used intellectually, allowing them to put a foot wrong before going in and doing the deed on them.

Another example might come from my experience of trying to park my car in Poland. Polish drivers are like rats who jump at the light behind your shoulder. Once i was waiting to pull out of a place. There was a driver further down already pulling out. A second driver saw the place and wanted it. She could see the space but didn't seem to get the idea that she couldn't fit her car through a 20cm gap to get there. Each time the 1st driver mooved a little, so did she. Eventually she was so far forward that the first driver couldn't drive forward because the second car was in the way. Until he drove forward and away there was no way she could get into the space. Of course, each time she drove forward, the car behind her drove forward (six inches at a time), so she couldn't move back... and she was across my tail, so I couldn't get out. If she had waited 20 seconds for the first driver to reverse out and drive away she'd have been fine, but she had no patience, no idea of planning the actions ahead.

Maybe I'm just a bit more patient generally, but the philosophy of respect, and restraint makes life a little easier when driving or using everyday facilities.


Edited by trevek (03/17/10 07:18 AM)
_________________________
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#425895 - 03/17/10 10:13 PM Re: "Trad. Philosophies" in ACTIONS [Re: trevek]
TeK9 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/22/05
Posts: 2257
Loc: Northern California, USA
Other than battle strategies and how they relate to other aspects of your life. If you wanted examples of these you could easily find them in Tsun Zhu's art of war.

One particular lesson for me was just how easy it is to hurt a person. Before starting MA I had no idea how fragile we are and that causing pain doesn't take any real skill at all.

Learning how to work with different partners gave me an appreciation for team work and how much I can learn about myself through observing others.

Forget all the social lessons, making friends, giving feedback, having patience, cultural differences, acceptance.

Trusting someone by holding the kicking back. Accidents happen, but learning to really forgive a person because you know they didn't mean to miss the bag and kick you in the face.

Bowing before and after an exercise as a sign of humility. And understanding that every physical action we take comes with a consequence.

Also learning to believe in yourself no matter how hopeless you think you are.

Self Discipline: putting in all that work and gaining all that confidence.

To me teaching Martial Arts without a basic set of morals. Is like teaching science and experimentation without ethics.
_________________________
"Poor is the pupil who
does not surpass his
master" - Leonardo Da
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#426488 - 04/15/10 11:55 PM Re: "Trad. Philosophies" in ACTIONS [Re: Ronin1966]
Ronin1966 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 04/26/02
Posts: 3116
Loc: East Coast, United States
I want to thank all of you who have taken part in the discussion thus far. Thank you.

How do these views, these philosophies present themselves in a tangible way outside of our respective training halls?

Take your pick there are many.

Fighting is not the goal of training, but rather trying to actively avoid such scenerios/situations in every possible way to me seems one philosophy with tangible outcomes.

Via training, hurting someone is shown to be awfully easy. Whether others or ourselves, getting hurt is pretty easy to achieve. Wanting to avoid stupid situations, places where trouble typically occurs, or is known to occur seems one tangible extension of that view.

So going to the club that is known for riots/brawls seems a wise place to avoid (ie we should want to avoid them). Enjoy the adrenaline rush, the "red zone" fine, seek out training partners who have the same love. But outside of class...avoid thoae situations that can and should be avoided.

This type of thing....

What kinds of philosophies are you taught what are carried into the "normal world", outside of formal training?

Jeff


Edited by Ronin1966 (04/15/10 11:57 PM)
Edit Reason: misspelling

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#427218 - 05/17/10 10:06 AM Re: "Trad. Philosophies" in ACTIONS [Re: trevek]
Ronin1966 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 04/26/02
Posts: 3116
Loc: East Coast, United States
Hello trevek:

<<I suppoe it depends on how much the 'philosophy' is actually taught as a philosophy. I mean, is there a philosophy to boxing and wrestling, fencing etc or is it something which just comes from being around other people and physical things you might learn in the club, on the mat etc?

Excellent question!!!

A philosophy comes from the leader of a school and that schools traditions. If the head avoids public spectacle, or passionately discourages using what they teach us unless absolutely required
it is unlikely students will actively seek those situations and still remain long term.

<<Example; keeping your temper... learning to keep your temper is a practical thing which can then transfer to everyday life.


Exactly! Is that not directly caused by our training? How many people hit us in daily life? How many cause us the kind of physical intensity, the pains which our practice partners give us? In spite of those feelings, that adrenaline, we remain in control because it is required of us by this training.

What others kinds of things does our training instruct us which carries directly into the "real world"?

Jeff

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#427231 - 05/17/10 09:54 PM Re: "Trad. Philosophies" in ACTIONS [Re: Ronin1966]
GungFuMang Offline
Member

Registered: 03/19/09
Posts: 50
I've always believed that MA training enhances our life through addition of the following qualities:
-Balance
-Body awareness
-Discipline
-Self belief
-Self defense skills
-Respect for yourself and others
-Not being intimidated by others (being able to make your own mind up)
-Physical fitness
-Understanding righteousness and to be 'the good guy'

Probably plenty more that I missed, but that list seems to cover what I get out of MA as a philosophy that spills to real life.

gfm

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#427463 - 05/31/10 04:33 PM Re: "Trad. Philosophies" in ACTIONS [Re: Ronin1966]
trevek Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/15/05
Posts: 3337
Loc: Poland
Originally Posted By: Ronin1966
Hello trevek:

<<
A philosophy comes from the leader of a school and that schools traditions. If the head avoids public spectacle, or passionately discourages using what they teach us unless absolutely required
it is unlikely students will actively seek those situations and still remain long term.

Jeff


Hi Jeff,

I recall reading an article by an anthropologist called Wacquant. He studied boxers in Chicago. One of the things which he writes about is the dedication to training which comes out of training, and how you feel bad if you miss a session. Therefore, you've kind of conditioned yourself to have to train. I suppose our training teaches us how to discipline ourselves in such a way that we need the discipline we impose on ourselves.

Wacquant also comments on "unspoken codes" amongst many of the boxers, related to training, fighting and behaviour towards "outsiders" (non-boxers), especially women. These don't seem to get taught as a flag-waving philosophy but are absorbed through training with others who already know the code.
_________________________
See how well I block your punches with my jaw!!

Supporting everyone saying "nuts to cancer"

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#427892 - 06/22/10 01:01 PM Re: "Trad. Philosophies" in ACTIONS [Re: GungFuMang]
Ronin1966 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 04/26/02
Posts: 3116
Loc: East Coast, United States
Hello GungFuMang:

Thank you for taking part!!! Please understand with this follow up I am not looking for conflict, or to be difficult. I am only looking for tangible clarification about the many, many ideas which you mention...

-Balance
-Body awareness
-Discipline
-Self belief
-Self defense skills
-Respect for yourself and others
-Not being intimidated by others (being able to make your own mind up)
-Physical fitness
-Understanding righteousness and to be 'the good guy'


If I am watching you in the course of your day, how does the list above demonstrate in a very visable manner? How does these martial training ideals exist/present in the "outside (normal) world" and its daily activities???

Jeff

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#427961 - 06/26/10 04:27 PM Re: "Trad. Philosophies" in ACTIONS [Re: Ronin1966]
Lei Offline
Newbie

Registered: 05/27/10
Posts: 9
Hey Ronin,

You have to look at origins, and lineage of style to understand the philosophies

Qi, Yin Yang theory if you want to understand how the philosophy transforms all energy in to form, matter, non matter, nothingness.....

The qualities and functions of Qi, Shen, Jing, Xue, and Yin Yang with its relationship to the universe phase of Qi and the "Eight Rays of Light" AKA the Pa Gua.

For example: The ancient Shen Mi Wen Hua of China used the power of long observing, studying the universe with the purpose of bringing heaven and earth together in the physical worlds, which gives immortality. Bringing the unseen vibrational world in harmony with the physical world, to control, fold time and space, to enter different realities, dimensions, and portals of everything possible in the universe on a macro level and the micro level - humans.

Basically, they were taoist wizards, and understood conduits and gateways of energies associated with directions in the universe(s) and would harness energy or qi while fighting and they also knew by were their opponent would gravitate to, fully understand all of that persons weakness. this is what is called the way - Tao

“He would also like to fly” Chang Si, 1156 - 1161

If you want to know more about the traditional science behind the philosophy, and actually learn how to harness the qi of the universe, feel free to ask away.

Ran Lei

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