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#425834 - 03/14/10 04:46 PM Re: Traditional Taekwondo same as karate [Re: Fruitloopy]
ITFunity Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/15/06
Posts: 2053
Originally Posted By: Fruitloopy
Originally Posted By: ITFunity
How are you defining Chang Hon or ITF TKD?
I don't know!
- Is Chan Hon or ITF based on April 11, 1955?
- Is it the early years up until the mid Sixties!
- Is it the period of the mid Sixties to early Seventies when TKD was taught to the troops in Vietnam and spread World Wide by a number of Pioneers?
- Or is Chang Hon what was taught originally to the North Koreans in the early eighties?
- What about when the first encyclopedia was developed?
- Maybe "true" Chang Hon is after Park J.T. left the ITF and "techniques" changed yet again?
- Maybe Chang Hon was when GM James Choi was helping his father?
- Maybe 'True" Chang Hon ITF was what was taught just before the split of the ITF before the General's death?
- How about after Gen. Choi's death when there was another split or two?
At what point of time do you choose as the "True" Chang Hon or ITF?
All great points which goes to show how fragmented TKD really is. However, while effective at demonstrating that valid point, it confuses the issue really, of an already confused issue, LOL!
So I guess I would use the timeframe or point in 2002 as my definition, but I tried to further clarify by adding some of the things I did, like doboks, tour rules, certs, movement etc. While it is also very true that all 3 ITFs & the many ITF like orgs are starting to have differences, they are imo still rather minor & small in number.
These differences pale in comparison, again imo, to the Chang Hon that started in the 1950s in the Oh Do kwan. That I think could be better described as Korean karate with the addition of some new Korean forms which were similiar to the karate roots they came from, minus an of the 2002 movement, chambers, formation & terminology.

My overall point & I am sorry if it was not clear, is that the ITF is the smallest group, by far. I think it is clear that the independents are by far the largest group. With the WTF/KKW being the largest & most powerful organization with way more influence that all of them put together.

With this in mind, I am speaking to the non ITF MAist or NON ITF TKD student. Since the ITF is so small, depending on where you live, you may never see a 2002 timeframe ITF school. Then, in situations like this, these non ITFers may see a Korean karate school that happens to do the Chang Hon forms in a karate kata like way & confuse that for an ITF up to date, registered Dojang, from the 2002 period & then make comparisions or critiques. That is my point, which your post did not catch or reply to, sorry for the confusion.

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#425838 - 03/15/10 01:39 PM Re: Traditional Taekwondo same as karate [Re: ITFunity]
Fruitloopy Offline
Member

Registered: 12/28/01
Posts: 67
Loc: The Great White North
My point: If I could use an analogy,

TKD is like the car the Corvette. This car first came out around 1953 and is still in production today. Every few years there was a small change to the styling of the car and sometimes to it's engine, chassis or interior workings of the vehicle. The looks and workings of the Corvette between 1953 and 1963 was quite different but yet not all that dramatic as the spirit of the car was still there. Again from between 1963 to '69 models more changes in the stylistic look and inner workings of the Corvette. And the same can be said through the 70's, 80's, 90's and 00's through until today but yet when you see this car it is still a Corvette!

Obviously TKD is not a car but I think we can draw some parallels.

The Corvette had to be based on something, a previous experience in the car industry. TKD is based on previous experience in Karate (Shotokan).

If you own and drive a 1958 Corvette you still own and drive a Corvette though it is and older style. Same as TKD.

Because you do not belong to a Corvette Organization(club) does not mean that you no longer have a valid Corvette. The same as TKD!(Organizations, Seminars, Tournaments, uniforms etc.)

I know this analogy leaves some room for argument as a car is a physical thing, a tangible object. That TKD, ITF-TKD are always growing and being updated. But once the first manual or comprehensive Tae Kwon Do book was complied and printed to a large degree the style was set! And this is where one major problem lies! Every time there is a new edition of the reference book it realistically nullifies all previous ones as it is now the current curriculum. But whenever there is a debate about proper or true technique the older books are referenced and brought to the forefront instead of growing into the new standard or curriculum.


Is TKD basically Shotokan or Karate with lots of kicks added, sure but with a lot of changes over the years to style and the inner workings of the system!


Edited by Fruitloopy (03/15/10 01:40 PM)
_________________________
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#425843 - 03/15/10 07:29 PM Re: Traditional Taekwondo same as karate [Re: Fruitloopy]
ITFunity Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/15/06
Posts: 2053
Originally Posted By: Fruitloopy
Is TKD basically Shotokan or Karate with lots of kicks added, sure but with a lot of changes over the years to style and the inner workings of the system!
No problem with your analogy. My only point is that many look at or define Chang Hon or ITF TKD as a school that does the Chon Ji forms. To me, that simply does not do it for me. Period end of story. This is because some can do Korean karate, but just utilize some or all of the Chon Ji forms, but do them karate style, which is not a problem & I see nothing wrong with that. However, they are simply NOT doing iTF Chang Hon TKD as I define it.
This is the only reason I( bring it up, as I am not sure how many posters here have actually been to, seen or trained in an up to date ITF Do jang, as I offered previous critera for illustration purposes only to facilitate an effect dialogue, thats all

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#425848 - 03/16/10 04:20 AM Re: Traditional Taekwondo same as karate [Re: Fruitloopy]
EarlWeiss Offline
Member

Registered: 07/29/05
Posts: 322
Originally Posted By: Fruitloopy
But once the first manual or comprehensive Tae Kwon Do book was complied and printed to a large degree the style was set! And this is where one major problem lies! Every time there is a new edition of the reference book it realistically nullifies all previous ones as it is now the current curriculum. But whenever there is a debate about proper or true technique the older books are referenced and brought to the forefront instead of growing into the new standard or curriculum.



I am not sure if we agree or not. Perhaps the "Style was set" with the first book. But, IMNSHO the problem was with many pioneer instructors teaching the style with habits from their previous systems and kwans. Took me a long tim to realize that is why different pioneers did things differently. Then I began to see a pattern such as those with a Chung Do Kwan lineage doing certain things. It was not until I took my first course with gneral Choi that I realized how various habits of pioneers migrated thru to their progeny.

IMNSHO the system changed little since my first experience with General Choi in 1990, and those I know who spen tmore time with him in the 1980's would probably say even before that.

As has been pointed out in other discussions he would concentrate on different points at courses as the students learned more and more the specifics of what he wanted, addressing the larger issues first and leaving smaller issues for another time. The evolution in how he taught was viewed by some as making changes since he might later correct finer points that were not addressed at earlier courses. His explanations also evolved over time. By this I mean that the system did not change, but the way he described things did.

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