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#425725 - 03/06/10 08:50 PM Re: Traditional Taekwondo same as karate [Re: ITFunity]
Zach_Zinn Offline
Veteran

Registered: 12/09/07
Posts: 1031
Loc: Olympia, WA
Well the uniform thing is pretty meaningless, if that were a standard for what something is then Karate would be Judo.

Anyway, I think the main strengths of the argument that it is basically a form of Karate are the shared kata, the history with Shotokan etc.

You could say that originally it was a Korean interpretation of Karate, but like all things it has developed into it's own thing.

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#425763 - 03/09/10 04:27 PM Re: Traditional Taekwondo same as karate [Re: TaekwonDoFan]
EarlWeiss Offline
Member

Registered: 07/29/05
Posts: 322
Originally Posted By: TaekwonDoFan
I consider TKD to be a Korean version of Karate. No denier has ever explained why, if that's not so, they have the same belt system and same type of white uniform as Karate - did Taekkyon pracitioners ever have that?



Why does your argument stop there? Why don't you argue that Karate is just a Japanese version of Okinawa- Te? Versions of the Shorin and Shrei Ryus? But why stop there. Some historians would simply say that since Shorin is the Okinawan pronunciation of Shaolin, than it's all just versions of the Chinese systems.

So, I guess what you are really saying is all those martial arts, Okinawa -Te, Karate, and TKD are just versions of the Chinese systems. Right?

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#425765 - 03/10/10 01:36 AM Re: Traditional Taekwondo same as karate [Re: EarlWeiss]
TaekwonDoFan Offline
Member

Registered: 01/23/10
Posts: 271
Quote:
Why does your argument stop there? Why don't you argue that Karate is just a Japanese version of Okinawa- Te? Versions of the Shorin and Shrei Ryus? But why stop there. Some historians would simply say that since Shorin is the Okinawan pronunciation of Shaolin, than it's all just versions of the Chinese systems.


Why not? But, in any case, difficulty in drawing a line is no reason for drawing it.

TKD's founders studied Shotokan Karate, but the founders of Shotokan Karate may not have studied Shaolin.

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#425785 - 03/11/10 03:54 PM Re: Traditional Taekwondo same as karate [Re: TaekwonDoFan]
EarlWeiss Offline
Member

Registered: 07/29/05
Posts: 322
Originally Posted By: TaekwonDoFan
Quote:
Why does your argument stop there? Why don't you argue that Karate is just a Japanese version of Okinawa- Te? Versions of the Shorin and Shrei Ryus? But why stop there. Some historians would simply say that since Shorin is the Okinawan pronunciation of Shaolin, than it's all just versions of the Chinese systems.


Why not? But, in any case, difficulty in drawing a line is no reason for drawing it.

TKD's founders studied Shotokan Karate, but the founders of Shotokan Karate may not have studied Shaolin.


Funakoshi is the founder of Shotokan. In his book he clearly referencess the Shotojkan foundations in the Shorin and Shorei systems. So your comment "may not have studied Shaolin" system is without merit if you accept the common premise of Shorin being the Okinawan pronunciation and derivation of Shaolin.


Edited by EarlWeiss (03/11/10 03:55 PM)

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#425789 - 03/11/10 07:57 PM Re: Traditional Taekwondo same as karate [Re: EarlWeiss]
Zach_Zinn Offline
Veteran

Registered: 12/09/07
Posts: 1031
Loc: Olympia, WA
Originally Posted By: EarlWeiss
Originally Posted By: TaekwonDoFan
I consider TKD to be a Korean version of Karate. No denier has ever explained why, if that's not so, they have the same belt system and same type of white uniform as Karate - did Taekkyon pracitioners ever have that?



Why does your argument stop there? Why don't you argue that Karate is just a Japanese version of Okinawa- Te? Versions of the Shorin and Shrei Ryus? But why stop there. Some historians would simply say that since Shorin is the Okinawan pronunciation of Shaolin, than it's all just versions of the Chinese systems.

So, I guess what you are really saying is all those martial arts, Okinawa -Te, Karate, and TKD are just versions of the Chinese systems. Right?


Yes, arguably they are all (at least partially) adaptations of Chinese systems, over time they developed their own distinct characteristics though, and are very different from their parent arts.

I'll say it again:

All the older TKD forms come from Karate, if the forms have any bearing on how the art is practiced (seems iffy tbh, I know plenty of TKD put little real emphasis on them as anything but physical exercise or presentations) then clearly, the forms being shared with their parent art of Shotokan makes a good case for styles being similar.

I suspect the real answer to this lies in the practitioners themselves though, if kata is little more than a distraction in your TKD, chances are it will share less in common with a tradtional Karate style...if however you are more interested in the "combatives" side of things and your curriculum is somehow logically linked to Kata syllabus...it might just look alot like Karate.

P.S. on Shorin Ryu: it may mean "Shaolin" yes, but it doesn't seem to look anything liek Shaolin kungfu styles, and to the best of my knowledge links between the two are few and far between...this is NOT the case with TKD and Shotokan.


Edited by Zach_Zinn (03/11/10 08:03 PM)

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#425793 - 03/11/10 08:30 PM Re: Traditional Taekwondo same as karate [Re: Zach_Zinn]
TeK9 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/22/05
Posts: 2257
Loc: Northern California, USA
Exactly my point Zach_Zinn

That is why I state that what is known as traditional TKD is just Japanese karate with a new name.

Just like Kumdo is kendo, Hapkido is Daito Ryu Aiki-jutsu, Judo is Yudo. All these arts are Japanese knock offs but with changed names and altered Korean traditions.

I even have a video on HwaRangDo Where the Grandmasters son claims Japanese Ju-jitsu as we know it today came from Korea.

From my own observation of these arts, they are exactly like their Japanese counterparts with the Korean emphasis on kicking techniques. With the exception of Kumdo which is like kendo.
_________________________
"Poor is the pupil who
does not surpass his
master" - Leonardo Da
Vinci

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#425811 - 03/12/10 12:20 PM Re: Traditional Taekwondo same as karate [Re: TeK9]
EarlWeiss Offline
Member

Registered: 07/29/05
Posts: 322
Originally Posted By: TeK9
.

From my own observation of these arts, they are exactly like their Japanese counterparts with the Korean emphasis on kicking techniques. With the exception of Kumdo which is like kendo.



Well, then, as it pertains to the Chang Ho system of TKD I would say your observation is lacking. Major fundamnetal difference with Shotokan is the theory of level headed stepping for Shotokan versus the knee flexion and noticeable up and down motion of the Chang Hon style. The up and down motion / knee flexion is not unique to this system since it can be found in western boxing and is even mentioned in Bruce Lee's reference to the one and 2 inch punch. The same is found in references to "Kinetic Linking" as was addressed on a "Fight science Show"

The variety of Kicking techniques are vastly different than Shotokan as is the idea of generating power even while jumping versus the firmly rooted theory of Karate.

So, to what extent are they exactly the same? Well, no more than Karate is exactly the same as it's Okinawa-Te roots.

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#425812 - 03/12/10 12:23 PM Re: Traditional Taekwondo same as karate [Re: TeK9]
EarlWeiss Offline
Member

Registered: 07/29/05
Posts: 322
Originally Posted By: TeK9


That is why I state that what is known as traditional TKD is just Japanese karate with a new name.



Sorry, I violated one of my fundamental premises. Before a productive discussion can take place all parties need to understand how terms are used.

Please tell us "What is known as traditional TKD". Or simply how you define traditional TKD?

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#425817 - 03/12/10 02:25 PM Re: Traditional Taekwondo same as karate [Re: EarlWeiss]
ITFunity Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/15/06
Posts: 2053
Originally Posted By: EarlWeiss
Originally Posted By: TeK9
From my own observation of these arts, they are exactly like their Japanese counterparts with the Korean emphasis on kicking techniques. With the exception of Kumdo which is like kendo.
Well, then, as it pertains to the Chang Ho system of TKD I would say your observation is lacking. Major fundamnetal difference with Shotokan is the theory of level headed stepping for Shotokan versus the knee flexion and noticeable up and down motion of the Chang Hon style. The up and down motion / knee flexion is not unique to this system since it can be found in western boxing and is even mentioned in Bruce Lee's reference to the one and 2 inch punch. The same is found in references to "Kinetic Linking" as was addressed on a "Fight science Show"
The variety of Kicking techniques are vastly different than Shotokan as is the idea of generating power even while jumping versus the firmly rooted theory of Karate.
So, to what extent are they exactly the same? Well, no more than Karate is exactly the same as it's Okinawa-Te roots.
I agree whole heartedly with Master Weiss & as I stated it really is in the eye of the beholder & their perspective. We must realize & I am sure most do, that all MAs have things in common. At the same time they have things that seperate them. I guess people will judge whether the differences outweigh the similiarities or actually pass a point where they "feel" it is a distinct MA.

While topic may continue to go in circles, not only would adding definitions help, but I ask what I think is a critically important question:
How are you defining Chang Hon or ITF TKD?
To me & I think for Master Weiss, it would be a school that is registered & up to date with 1 of the ITFs or major ITF like orgs. They keep current by attending seminars & tournaments, getting their certification through applying the standard syllabus, wear the proper ITF dobok, follow Gen Choi's books & teachings etc.
Honestly I don't know how many people actually have had close experiences observing a school, instructor & students like this, as most TKD schools are independent or do Kukki TKD, following WTF rules & poomsae etc.

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#425826 - 03/13/10 02:03 PM Re: Traditional Taekwondo same as karate [Re: ITFunity]
Fruitloopy Offline
Member

Registered: 12/28/01
Posts: 67
Loc: The Great White North
Originally Posted By: ITFunity

While topic may continue to go in circles, not only would adding definitions help, but I ask what I think is a critically important question:
How are you defining Chang Hon or ITF TKD?


I don't know!
- Is Chan Hon or ITF based on April 11, 1955?
- Is it the early years up until the mid Sixties!
- Is it the period of the mid Sixties to early Seventies when TKD was taught to the troops in Vietnam and spread World Wide by a number of Pioneers?
- Or is Chang Hon what was taught originally to the North Koreans in the early eighties?
- What about when the first encyclopedia was developed?
- Maybe "true" Chang Hon is after Park J.T. left the ITF and "techniques" changed yet again?
- Maybe Chang Hon was when GM James Choi was helping his father?
- Maybe 'True" Chang Hon ITF was what was taught just before the split of the ITF before the General's death?
- How about after Gen. Choi's death when there was another split or two?

At what point of time do you choose as the "True" Chang Hon or ITF?


Quote:
To me & I think for Master Weiss, it would be a school that is registered & up to date with 1 of the ITFs or major ITF like orgs.


Which ones? ITF - ____ ones or any orgs. with a connection to the ITF dating back in history?

Quote:
They keep current by attending seminars & tournaments, getting their certification through applying the standard syllabus, wear the proper ITF dobok, follow Gen Choi's books & teachings etc.


"Current" as related to what?

Pay fees for seminars ..... Pay fees for tournaments .... Pay for Certificates .... Pay fees for "the proper" ITF Dobok and gear .....

I have seen seminar pictures of Masters and Grand Masters getting corrected by other Masters or Grand Masters. If I posted a picture: Is the Master in the photo getting corrected because his technique is wrong? Or is it not current? He is a Master after all! And is the Grand Master correcting actually correct and or current as well?



Quote:
Honestly I don't know how many people actually have had close experiences observing a school, instructor & students like this, as most TKD schools are independent or do Kukki TKD, following WTF rules & poomsae etc.


I wonder why there are so many independent Chang Hon based/background schools?
_________________________
T. White

http://www.oshawamartialarts.com

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