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#425704 - 03/05/10 08:46 PM Re: Traditional Taekwondo same as karate [Re: ITFunity]
TaekwonDoFan Offline
Member

Registered: 01/23/10
Posts: 271
My first problem is that the WTF people claim that TKD came from Taekkyon, but there's no historical evidence of that.

My other problem, related to the first, is that they fight over who founded TKD, but none of them give credit to the obvious fact that they took much of their system from Karate, as evidenced by the belt system. So what they should really do is give credit to Gino Funakoshi, founder of Shotokan Karate, for the inspiration he gave to General Choi Hong Hi, a 2nd Dan. But the WTF would never do that, of course.

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#425706 - 03/05/10 09:52 PM Re: Traditional Taekwondo same as karate [Re: TaekwonDoFan]
TeK9 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/22/05
Posts: 2257
Loc: Northern California, USA
We've gotten off topic. No matter what you call it. My original post states that TKD is really karate with a Korean name.

It is common knowledge that all the heads of the kwans were black belts in Karate.

And nobody really believes the universal lie that TKD has anything to do with Tae Kyon. Even instructors such as Herb Perez who writes articles on the subject...clearly goes along with this lie. On his schools website under TKD history it says it's 2000 years old and it comes from the 3 ancient korean kingdoms and blah, blah, blah.

So nobody can realy give some examples of just how "Traditional" TKD is truly a unique entity from karate.

I mean sign wave and patterns? That's just not really good enough.

Remember I'm not only looking at GM Choi's, but Moo Duk Kwan and all the other Kwans that clam "traditional" TKD.
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#425711 - 03/06/10 08:17 AM Re: Traditional Taekwondo same as karate [Re: TaekwonDoFan]
ITFunity Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/15/06
Posts: 2053
Originally Posted By: TaekwonDoFan
My first problem is that the WTF people claim that TKD came from Taekkyon, but there's no historical evidence of that.
Yes I will go some steps further 1) there was 1 person credited with keeping Taek Kyon alive during the occupation & 2) he said straight out that he could find no one to practice with & 3) his people are on record saying that no TKD guys consulted them & finally 4) the martial sport TKD leader said they never consulted them either. The connection to Taek Kyon is pure rubbish, put forth to show that TKD did not come from karate brought to Korea from Japan, which we know it did, without any doubt whatsoever

Originally Posted By: TaekwonDoFan
My other problem, related to the first, is that they fight over who founded TKD, but none of them give credit to the obvious fact that they took much of their system from Karate, as evidenced by the belt system. So what they should really do is give credit to Gino Funakoshi, founder of Shotokan Karate, for the inspiration he gave to General Choi Hong Hi, a 2nd Dan. But the WTF would never do that, of course.
Not exactly true, as Gen Choi clearly makes it know that he came up with his system, the 1st system to be called TKD from his karate training. The WTF will credit him, but no one will credit Master Funakoshi, that is right

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#425712 - 03/06/10 08:33 AM Re: Traditional Taekwondo same as karate [Re: TeK9]
ITFunity Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/15/06
Posts: 2053
Originally Posted By: TeK9
We've gotten off topic. No matter what you call it. My original post states that TKD is really karate with a Korean name.
Yes we have, but remember that we can not come up with answers without deeply considering not only the history but the many factors that manipulated the history & the reasons why.

Originally Posted By: TeK9
It is common knowledge that all the heads of the kwans were black belts in Karate.
Not really, GM Hwang Kee never claimed a BB, nor have I seen anything that indicated he was.

Originally Posted By: TeK9
And nobody really believes the universal lie that TKD has anything to do with Tae Kyon. Even instructors such as Herb Perez who writes articles on the subject...clearly goes along with this lie. On his schools website under TKD history it says it's 2000 years old and it comes from the 3 ancient korean kingdoms and blah, blah, blah.
Yes & no. I would imagine as a high level WTF official he must tow the company line to an extent. But he is also on record with Dr. S. Capener where they debunk the false story as well. So he likely just cuts & pasted the made up fantasy story for his website, as that is what many do. That story was fabricated by GM Lee Chong Woo for the SK Dept of Ed & has become sort of a "holy story" that is now being laughed at. 1st it was the karate guys who pointed out the fallacy & the Koreans & TKD students ignored them. However now so many TKD people & younger generation scholars & leaders are now speaking the truth & the power of the internet is helping the genie out of the bottle, eventually others will fall in line imo

Originally Posted By: TeK9
So nobody can realy give some examples of just how "Traditional" TKD is truly a unique entity from karate. I mean sign wave and patterns? That's just not really good enough.
Yes you are right, from your perspective. I can't change that, but remember it is all in the eye of the beholder. I can add in all the flying kicks, the mutiple kicking, fast counter kicks, quick stepping as well, but it is a moot point. However if one watches an Olympic TKD sports match, do they really think of Shotokan karate?

Originally Posted By: TeK9
Remember I'm not only looking at GM Choi's, but Moo Duk Kwan and all the other Kwans that clam "traditional" TKD.
Sorry but Moo Duk kwan stayed Tang Su Do & developed along the Su Bak Do line, which in some way gives them some credibility to a link to KMAs of the past. Hwang Kee never accepted the name TKD & never stayed with any unification effort. He was toally against the sports emphasis put in place by the 2nd generation leaders. He, along with his rival, Gen Choi, became villified by the sports TKD guys & the SK govt. GM Hwang Kee took his cause the the courts of SK, that is how much he fought the KMA men that were in power

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#425717 - 03/06/10 02:39 PM Re: Traditional Taekwondo same as karate [Re: ITFunity]
Zach_Zinn Offline
Veteran

Registered: 12/09/07
Posts: 1031
Loc: Olympia, WA
Meh TKD does the Naihanchin and Pinan series of kata,there are some things that are different from Karate for sure, but many of them seem related more to the development of TKD as a sport to me.

Stuff like the sine wave, the hoppy footwork seems to be a result of the sport outgrowth, which IS different from traditional Karate.

If people are really interested in looking at the the martial art of TKD, and not only the sport part, I would guess the former is pretty close to Karate..is that accurate you think?

Mind you, this is not saying that it's "unoriginal" anymore than Karate is unoriginal when it is also a "mixed bag" of influences.

Just like Karate did in the last 10 or 15 years, I have noticed in magazines like Jissen lately a desire for TKD to return to "combative" roots.


Edited by Zach_Zinn (03/06/10 02:47 PM)

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#425718 - 03/06/10 03:25 PM Re: Traditional Taekwondo same as karate [Re: TeK9]
Prizewriter Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 10/23/05
Posts: 2573
I don't know a lot about this subject, but it does interest me.

A big difference between "tradtional" TKD and Shotokan is the absence of sweeps. I am aware some trad TKD schools include sweeps in step sparring, but Shotokan does it in kihon and kumite (i.e. step-sparring and free sparring).

Here are some karate examples of sweeps (loved the first one!!):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zwW3O0cZTIg&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IbtN6_su3Kg

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4SWhpQVih4Y&feature=related

Don't know why TKD doesn't allow these in free sparring. I've heard it said that sweeps are dangerous. I think that is silly. Sweeps are no more dangerous than most of the other moves found in TKD or Shotokan, and a heck of a lot safer than a kick in the head!!

Another difference I have noticed is that TKD makes more use of circular/reverse kicking motions. They don't seem to do this as much in Shotokan.

I remember a Shotokan student telling me about a seminar he attended. The instructor was Frank Brennan, a legend in modern Shotokan. He said that Brennan made extensive use of the Reverse Side Kick in tournaments. Apparently they weren't use to it in Shotokan comps and because Mr Brennan was tremendously fast, he used it to great effect.

Just some differences I've come across. Is "traditional" TKD simply Shotokan by another name? As ITFUnity says, it is in the eye of the beholder. You could argue that Somobo and BJJ are Judo by another name, seeing as both these systems are started with a Judo base. Depends on your perspective I suppose.
_________________________
"Let your food be your medicine, and your medicine be your food" Hippocrates.

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#425721 - 03/06/10 05:34 PM Re: Traditional Taekwondo same as karate [Re: Prizewriter]
TaekwonDoFan Offline
Member

Registered: 01/23/10
Posts: 271
I consider TKD to be a Korean version of Karate. No denier has ever explained why, if that's not so, they have the same belt system and same type of white uniform as Karate - did Taekkyon pracitioners ever have that?



Edited by TaekwonDoFan (03/06/10 05:34 PM)

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#425722 - 03/06/10 07:19 PM Re: Traditional Taekwondo same as karate [Re: Zach_Zinn]
ITFunity Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/15/06
Posts: 2053
Originally Posted By: Zach_Zinn
If people are really interested in looking at the the martial art of TKD, and not only the sport part, I would guess the former is pretty close to Karate..is that accurate you think? Mind you, this is not saying that it's "unoriginal" anymore than Karate is unoriginal when it is also a "mixed bag" of influences. Just like Karate did in the last 10 or 15 years, I have noticed in magazines like Jissen lately a desire for TKD to return to "combative" roots.
Yes I think most MAs share much in common

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#425723 - 03/06/10 07:27 PM Re: Traditional Taekwondo same as karate [Re: Prizewriter]
ITFunity Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/15/06
Posts: 2053
Originally Posted By: Prizewriter
A big difference between "tradtional" TKD and Shotokan is the absence of sweeps. I am aware some trad TKD schools include sweeps in step sparring, but Shotokan does it in kihon and kumite (i.e. step-sparring and free sparring). Don't know why TKD doesn't allow these in free sparring. I've heard it said that sweeps are dangerous. I think that is silly. Sweeps are no more dangerous than most of the other moves found in TKD or Shotokan, and a heck of a lot safer than a kick in the head!!
I would say & I have read that the reason sweeps were made against the sports sparring match rules was to make TKD Korean & show it is different from karate. The primary way the Kukki TKD or Olympic TKD men made their KMA different was from the new unique sports rules that were developed mainly in the JiDokwan & was called Tae Soo Do in the early 60s.
The ITF has extensive sweeps, takedowns, foot tackling, throws etc, but are often neglected as their sports rules developed in the OhDokwan by Gen Woo Jong Lim & were adopted as official ITF tournament rules made them illegal techniques as well. Far too many ITF schools simply train tournament sport fighting & not real fighting or SD emphasis, which is sad, as it is not only the WTF that is guilty of this. The ITF schools have no excuse, as it is all in the syllabus, but far to many ignore the entire & rather extensive, comprehensive syllabus as outlined in the 15 volume Encyclopedia of TKD written by Gen Choi for all of TKD

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#425724 - 03/06/10 07:34 PM Re: Traditional Taekwondo same as karate [Re: TaekwonDoFan]
ITFunity Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/15/06
Posts: 2053
Originally Posted By: TaekwonDoFan
I consider TKD to be a Korean version of Karate. No denier has ever explained why, if that's not so, they have the same belt system and same type of white uniform as Karate - did Taekkyon pracitioners ever have that?
You will get little arguement from me, as I said it is in the eye of the beholder. All MAs share many things in common & have things that allow them to stand apart. Some emphasis the commonality, while others see more clearly the differences.
There is no doubt TKD was born from karate, via the 7 Koreans that studied abroad, mostly in Japan, with some minor influence. However while the early TKD guys did use the belt system & karate gi, both the ITF & WTF have different doboks & have adopted different belt colors. These are just minor cosmetic changes, & in the case of the ITF, these changes are based upon Korean customs

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